3rd Party Claiming I Am Responsible
Discussion
I was as involved in an RTA a few weeks back and had assumed it was a cut an dried no fault for me.
The collision occurred when a hire vehicle, driven by a foreign tourist, in front of me slowed on an approach to a layby on the opposite side of road and signalled right.
The vehicle then changed the signal to a left signal and proceeded along road at about 15-20mph taking a very left of centre driving position.
Ahead on our side of the road was a bus-stop and on the other side of the road, to the right an entrance to a farm lane. This lane was clear of and vehicles and there was no oncoming traffic.
The hire car still signalling left started to turn into the bus stop. I decided to pass and accelerated hard.
The car swung right to make a U-turn and was T-boned by myself.
At the scene I took advantage of a very contrite and confused tourist who asked me "what do I need to do?".
I told them we have to exchange details and make then exchange video statements on our phone via WhatsApp.
The tourist admitted to being lost, a bit confused needing to turn and "turning right from the left lane" to make a turn in the road.
"Scot free" I thought till I received a communication from an accident management company representing the Hire Car company stating it does not dispute any of the facts of the matter but considers me to be to blame.
Apparently being confused, signalling right then left, driving at low speed in the gutter, swinging left into a bus-stop then right to perform a U-turn have all been described as a "correctly proceeding vehicle in the given circumstances"
Overtaking said vehicle driven in a erratic manner, however, rather than "maintaining a safe distance and appropriate speed is a failure to exercise due care and attention" by myself and, as such I will be pursued for all losses, insured and uninsured suffered by the driver of the hire vehicle and the hire company.
I spoke to the accident management company who handles our fleet accidents and was told it's not unusual for hire car drivers to have massive excesses on their vehicles and change tunes once they are aware of their liabilities.
Balance of probabilities in any disputed case regardless of circumstances is if there is no video evidence of witnesses accident will go 50/50.
Does anyone have any views or experience that will give me an idea on what to expect next?
The collision occurred when a hire vehicle, driven by a foreign tourist, in front of me slowed on an approach to a layby on the opposite side of road and signalled right.
The vehicle then changed the signal to a left signal and proceeded along road at about 15-20mph taking a very left of centre driving position.
Ahead on our side of the road was a bus-stop and on the other side of the road, to the right an entrance to a farm lane. This lane was clear of and vehicles and there was no oncoming traffic.
The hire car still signalling left started to turn into the bus stop. I decided to pass and accelerated hard.
The car swung right to make a U-turn and was T-boned by myself.
At the scene I took advantage of a very contrite and confused tourist who asked me "what do I need to do?".
I told them we have to exchange details and make then exchange video statements on our phone via WhatsApp.
The tourist admitted to being lost, a bit confused needing to turn and "turning right from the left lane" to make a turn in the road.
"Scot free" I thought till I received a communication from an accident management company representing the Hire Car company stating it does not dispute any of the facts of the matter but considers me to be to blame.
Apparently being confused, signalling right then left, driving at low speed in the gutter, swinging left into a bus-stop then right to perform a U-turn have all been described as a "correctly proceeding vehicle in the given circumstances"
Overtaking said vehicle driven in a erratic manner, however, rather than "maintaining a safe distance and appropriate speed is a failure to exercise due care and attention" by myself and, as such I will be pursued for all losses, insured and uninsured suffered by the driver of the hire vehicle and the hire company.
I spoke to the accident management company who handles our fleet accidents and was told it's not unusual for hire car drivers to have massive excesses on their vehicles and change tunes once they are aware of their liabilities.
Balance of probabilities in any disputed case regardless of circumstances is if there is no video evidence of witnesses accident will go 50/50.
Does anyone have any views or experience that will give me an idea on what to expect next?
Tannedbaldhead said:
Balance of probabilities in any disputed case regardless of circumstances is if there is no video evidence of witnesses accident will go 50/50.
This would be my assumption too - for all that you've posted, it could also be interpreted that you collided with another car while trying to overtake it in the middle of a manoeuvre.I sympathise as I had a very similar scenario years ago, but 50:50 was how insurance settled it and in hindsight that was probably fair as both of us could've driven better.
Tannedbaldhead said:
I was as involved in an RTA a few weeks back and had assumed it was a cut an dried no fault for me.
The collision occurred when a hire vehicle, driven by a foreign tourist, in front of me slowed on an approach to a layby on the opposite side of road and signalled right.
The vehicle then changed the signal to a left signal and proceeded along road at about 15-20mph taking a very left of centre driving position.
Ahead on our side of the road was a bus-stop and on the other side of the road, to the right an entrance to a farm lane. This lane was clear of and vehicles and there was no oncoming traffic.
The hire car still signalling left started to turn into the bus stop. I decided to pass and accelerated hard.
The car swung right to make a U-turn and was T-boned by myself.
At the scene I took advantage of a very contrite and confused tourist who asked me "what do I need to do?".
I told them we have to exchange details and make then exchange video statements on our phone via WhatsApp.
The tourist admitted to being lost, a bit confused needing to turn and "turning right from the left lane" to make a turn in the road.
"Scot free" I thought till I received a communication from an accident management company representing the Hire Car company stating it does not dispute any of the facts of the matter but considers me to be to blame.
Apparently being confused, signalling right then left, driving at low speed in the gutter, swinging left into a bus-stop then right to perform a U-turn have all been described as a "correctly proceeding vehicle in the given circumstances"
Overtaking said vehicle driven in a erratic manner, however, rather than "maintaining a safe distance and appropriate speed is a failure to exercise due care and attention" by myself and, as such I will be pursued for all losses, insured and uninsured suffered by the driver of the hire vehicle and the hire company.
I spoke to the accident management company who handles our fleet accidents and was told it's not unusual for hire car drivers to have massive excesses on their vehicles and change tunes once they are aware of their liabilities.
Balance of probabilities in any disputed case regardless of circumstances is if there is no video evidence of witnesses accident will go 50/50.
Does anyone have any views or experience that will give me an idea on what to expect next?
Well obviously you will maintain your stance that the foreign tourist was, as you say, driving erratically, unsure of his road position unsure of where he was going and as such should have stayed left allowed traffic to pass ensure it was safe to do a U turn when the road was clear of traffic.The collision occurred when a hire vehicle, driven by a foreign tourist, in front of me slowed on an approach to a layby on the opposite side of road and signalled right.
The vehicle then changed the signal to a left signal and proceeded along road at about 15-20mph taking a very left of centre driving position.
Ahead on our side of the road was a bus-stop and on the other side of the road, to the right an entrance to a farm lane. This lane was clear of and vehicles and there was no oncoming traffic.
The hire car still signalling left started to turn into the bus stop. I decided to pass and accelerated hard.
The car swung right to make a U-turn and was T-boned by myself.
At the scene I took advantage of a very contrite and confused tourist who asked me "what do I need to do?".
I told them we have to exchange details and make then exchange video statements on our phone via WhatsApp.
The tourist admitted to being lost, a bit confused needing to turn and "turning right from the left lane" to make a turn in the road.
"Scot free" I thought till I received a communication from an accident management company representing the Hire Car company stating it does not dispute any of the facts of the matter but considers me to be to blame.
Apparently being confused, signalling right then left, driving at low speed in the gutter, swinging left into a bus-stop then right to perform a U-turn have all been described as a "correctly proceeding vehicle in the given circumstances"
Overtaking said vehicle driven in a erratic manner, however, rather than "maintaining a safe distance and appropriate speed is a failure to exercise due care and attention" by myself and, as such I will be pursued for all losses, insured and uninsured suffered by the driver of the hire vehicle and the hire company.
I spoke to the accident management company who handles our fleet accidents and was told it's not unusual for hire car drivers to have massive excesses on their vehicles and change tunes once they are aware of their liabilities.
Balance of probabilities in any disputed case regardless of circumstances is if there is no video evidence of witnesses accident will go 50/50.
Does anyone have any views or experience that will give me an idea on what to expect next?
Being unfamiliar with the roads and traffic situation, the relevant highway code sections put the onus on the driver to ensure all his manoeuvres avoided putting any other road user at risk.
I would advise the accident management company that you would be informing the police of the accident and reporting their client for dangerous driving, driving without due car and attention, and careless driving, ( you really should have reported it at an early stage).
I would suggest that you invest in a camera for future reference/back up evidence in any other situation similar to the stated one, as there are many many UK knobhead drivers around.
My gut says that the AMC as trying it on - It should go down against the other driver - they failed to check their mirrors before changing course.
No different to pulling out to overtake into the path of an already established overtaking vehicle. Their change of direction caused the collision.
End of the day I'd be pressing this further, taking it to court if needed - the chances of a foreign third party turning up to a U.K. court hearing is negligible and you should then win the judgement.
No different to pulling out to overtake into the path of an already established overtaking vehicle. Their change of direction caused the collision.
End of the day I'd be pressing this further, taking it to court if needed - the chances of a foreign third party turning up to a U.K. court hearing is negligible and you should then win the judgement.
GasEngineer said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
I was as involved in an RTA a few weeks back and had assumed it was a cut an dried no fault for me.
The collision occurred when a hire vehicle, driven by a foreign tourist, in front of me slowed on an approach to a layby on the opposite side of road and signalled right.
The vehicle then changed the signal to a left signal and proceeded along road at about 15-20mph taking a very left of centre driving position.
Ahead on our side of the road was a bus-stop and on the other side of the road, to the right an entrance to a farm lane. This lane was clear of and vehicles and there was no oncoming traffic.
The hire car still signalling left started to turn into the bus stop. I decided to pass and accelerated hard.
The car swung right to make a U-turn and was T-boned by myself.
At the scene I took advantage of a very contrite and confused tourist who asked me "what do I need to do?".
I told them we have to exchange details and make then exchange video statements on our phone via WhatsApp.
The tourist admitted to being lost, a bit confused needing to turn and "turning right from the left lane" to make a turn in the road.
"Scot free" I thought till I received a communication from an accident management company representing the Hire Car company stating it does not dispute any of the facts of the matter but considers me to be to blame.
Apparently being confused, signalling right then left, driving at low speed in the gutter, swinging left into a bus-stop then right to perform a U-turn have all been described as a "correctly proceeding vehicle in the given circumstances"
Overtaking said vehicle driven in a erratic manner, however, rather than "maintaining a safe distance and appropriate speed is a failure to exercise due care and attention" by myself and, as such I will be pursued for all losses, insured and uninsured suffered by the driver of the hire vehicle and the hire company.
I spoke to the accident management company who handles our fleet accidents and was told it's not unusual for hire car drivers to have massive excesses on their vehicles and change tunes once they are aware of their liabilities.
Balance of probabilities in any disputed case regardless of circumstances is if there is no video evidence of witnesses accident will go 50/50.
Does anyone have any views or experience that will give me an idea on what to expect next?
You've asked for views:The collision occurred when a hire vehicle, driven by a foreign tourist, in front of me slowed on an approach to a layby on the opposite side of road and signalled right.
The vehicle then changed the signal to a left signal and proceeded along road at about 15-20mph taking a very left of centre driving position.
Ahead on our side of the road was a bus-stop and on the other side of the road, to the right an entrance to a farm lane. This lane was clear of and vehicles and there was no oncoming traffic.
The hire car still signalling left started to turn into the bus stop. I decided to pass and accelerated hard.
The car swung right to make a U-turn and was T-boned by myself.
At the scene I took advantage of a very contrite and confused tourist who asked me "what do I need to do?".
I told them we have to exchange details and make then exchange video statements on our phone via WhatsApp.
The tourist admitted to being lost, a bit confused needing to turn and "turning right from the left lane" to make a turn in the road.
"Scot free" I thought till I received a communication from an accident management company representing the Hire Car company stating it does not dispute any of the facts of the matter but considers me to be to blame.
Apparently being confused, signalling right then left, driving at low speed in the gutter, swinging left into a bus-stop then right to perform a U-turn have all been described as a "correctly proceeding vehicle in the given circumstances"
Overtaking said vehicle driven in a erratic manner, however, rather than "maintaining a safe distance and appropriate speed is a failure to exercise due care and attention" by myself and, as such I will be pursued for all losses, insured and uninsured suffered by the driver of the hire vehicle and the hire company.
I spoke to the accident management company who handles our fleet accidents and was told it's not unusual for hire car drivers to have massive excesses on their vehicles and change tunes once they are aware of their liabilities.
Balance of probabilities in any disputed case regardless of circumstances is if there is no video evidence of witnesses accident will go 50/50.
Does anyone have any views or experience that will give me an idea on what to expect next?
My view is that you should not have overtaken while the car was dithering about. Understood that you just wanted to get past them and out of their way but it was your hard acceleration that caused the accident.
Isn't that reasonable to pass?
And isn't the 3rd party making a right turn from a bus-stop/ layby across an overtaking vehicle without checking mirrors or changing from a left signal to a right not a greater contribution to the collision than the overtake?
Tannedbaldhead said:
At the time of my decision to overtake the vehicle was pulling into a bus-stop whilst indicating left.
Isn't that reasonable to pass?
Your post says that you accelerated "hard".Isn't that reasonable to pass?
Given the unpredictable driving of the other car I'd say that was a misjudgement, and if overtaking you should have done so with great caution.
It sounds 50-50 to me.
kiethton said:
My gut says that the AMC as trying it on - It should go down against the other driver - they failed to check their mirrors before changing course.
Agree.OP:
In the same situation I'd have sounded my horn. One surprising (to me) thing about the defensive driver training we had at work was they use the horn loads more than your average driver.
Who is handling the claim from your side? It reads like you're going it alone when it should be with your insurer to deal with.
Have you reported the incident to your insurers and are they also dealing with the repairs to your own vehicle? You need to make sure they take over the handling of the defence of the claim as the other side might issue court proceedings and get judgment in default if it doesn’t get dealt with properly.
KungFuPanda said:
Have you reported the incident to your insurers and are they also dealing with the repairs to your own vehicle? You need to make sure they take over the handling of the defence of the claim as the other side might issue court proceedings and get judgment in default if it doesn t get dealt with properly.
Fleet manager, Inuarance and Accident Management Company have been in the loop from day 1. This will almost certainly end up knock for knock. U less either of you has dash-cam footage and/or witnesses supporting your view then it’s going to be hard to apportion 100% fault.
In terms of the driving, defensive driving would have you hold back behind a driver who has demonstrated that they’re uncertain about where they’re going.
In terms of the driving, defensive driving would have you hold back behind a driver who has demonstrated that they’re uncertain about where they’re going.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but in the circumstances you describe, overtaking whilst probably perfectly natural was the wrong thing to do especially as the tourist has already tried to turn right
Sounding the horn and waiting behind would have been better.
It won’t be the tourist arguing but the hire company and their Insurer and unless they both roll easily I can see this as being 50/50.
Had you not overtaken no crash would have taken place.
However even if 50/50 will it make much difference if at all to future Insurance premiums either way is usually the question then asked.
The answer is no one can answer that as yet not even the Insurer.
Fwiw I would doubt much and even if it does when you then shop it probably ends up as not at all.
Sounding the horn and waiting behind would have been better.
It won’t be the tourist arguing but the hire company and their Insurer and unless they both roll easily I can see this as being 50/50.
Had you not overtaken no crash would have taken place.
However even if 50/50 will it make much difference if at all to future Insurance premiums either way is usually the question then asked.
The answer is no one can answer that as yet not even the Insurer.
Fwiw I would doubt much and even if it does when you then shop it probably ends up as not at all.
Tannedbaldhead said:
At the scene I took advantage of a very contrite and confused tourist who asked me "what do I need to do?".
I told them we have to exchange details and make then exchange video statements on our phone via WhatsApp.
So you took advantage of a confused tourist , well done !I told them we have to exchange details and make then exchange video statements on our phone via WhatsApp.
Since when do people have to make video statements via WhatsApp ? Not everyone has WhatsApp on their phones.
Sporky said:
Your post says that you accelerated "hard".
Given the unpredictable driving of the other car I'd say that was a misjudgement, and if overtaking you should have done so with great caution.
It sounds 50-50 to me.
I agree slowing and passing with caution would have been the defensive driving approach. Not adding speed near a confused driver. Horn also prudent.Given the unpredictable driving of the other car I'd say that was a misjudgement, and if overtaking you should have done so with great caution.
It sounds 50-50 to me.
MediumBuild said:
This will almost certainly end up knock for knock.
Knock for knock agreements haven't existed for a long time in UK Motor Insurance, but I suspect you mean 50:50, in which case I agree. The concept of a knock for knock is that you (your insurer) deal with your own damage and the other party deals with theirs, whereas in a 50:50 settlement you each pay 50% of each party's loss.
Wills2 said:
I'd say 50/50 however given that you started making stuff up (whatapp videos? WTF) to advantage yourself after you'd T boned their car I'm going for 100% your fault, 6 points and a driving assessment...take him down. 
Made nothing up.We are instructed that as soon as we crash to take pictures of damage to vehicles, of occupants of vehicles, of collision site and give a description of events whilst showing the likes of bus-layby the initial layby car was turning into and in farm entrance where he tried to U-Turn.
I asked the 3rd party to make his own account and send it to me.
His account was basically the same as mine where he said he was on the wrong road, wanted to U-Turn at the 1st lay-by but the road wasn't wide enough so decided to U-Turn using the bus-stop layby and farm entrance.
The facts of the matter are not in contention. Cameras and witnesses would only confirm what happened which was clearly and honestly stated by both parties.
When I said I accelerated hard bear in mind I was accelerating from a low speed to about 30-35 mph on an NSL stretch of road where 60mph is considered safe and that I overtook a car pulling left into a bus-stop/layby whilst signalling left.
Sadly I think many of us would have done the same, but it does sound like you're both responsible. If you hadn't gone for overtake it wouldn't have happened. You should have driven defensively, hung back rather than charge ahead. Hindsight is easy but I suspect you'll be splitting liability on this.
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