Small Claims - Who's been Successful?
Discussion
For those that saw my thread about my rejection of a vehicle and receiving silence. I escalated that one to the court and it has been ruled in my favour by default, how that ends remains to be seen given the guy is trying to close the company and if he hasn't fled to another country I doubt very much based on speaking with bailiffs if I'll see the money I am now owed.
But, if you'd like to hear something funny (I laugh or I'd cry), to replace the first car I bought and had to reject, I picked up a replacement. It was a long distance sale, I was given all the details of the car (Citroen C4 Grand Picasso - a mistake!), videos, photos, service history and it all looked lovely. The deal was done and delivery was arranged - along with a fresh service and a brand new MOT. What could go wrong? What are the chances of buying two total dog eggs from dodgy traders hundreds of miles apart?
Car arrived exactly as described, lovely condition inside and out, everything worked and no knocks or obvious issues. I begin commuting to work (90 mile round trip). Then the issues began to appear it would cut out under acceleration, not limp mode but die entirely. Not ideal middle lane of the M5! It also leaks diesel from the back, literally from the first fill up of the tank - but a fresh MOT?
I took it to two local mechanics to see if I can get to the bottom of the issues and in short discovered the following:
- High pressure fuel pump is failing and requires replacing (£1,400 OEM) but the oil from it has contaminated the fuel system and to be properly repaired would require the system cleaned/flushed.
- Adblue system has been crudely removed and incorrectly mapped - explaining the massive amounts of smoke.
- Fuel tank is leaking
Trader was informed within the first 13 days of the issues, but ignored. I needed the car for work so had to try and get it fixed. I did ~1,200 miles in total in the first few weeks and week 4 was spent in the garage. I have written evidence from both garages about the issues.
Trader responded when on day 29 I rejected the vehicle as per advice from the Citizens Advice. I have everything recorded but in short he told me I was a scammer, they don't run a lease company as I have done, "thousands of miles" and I'm not entitled to reject it due to the time frame.
A response received on the case today and their points:
- Customer has done thousands of miles - they don't actually know how many miles I've done
- Offered me repairs which I refused - Their offer was drive it 3 hours for them to fix
- Offered collection of vehicle to have repairs which I refused - I didn't, they never offered
So, for those who have been through this whole process, what are your thoughts?
I would have thought the fuel pump issue would be significant enough but the fuel leak should have been an MOT fail as would be the Adblue removal.
Apologies for such a long post and yes in short, I have two rejected vehicles sat on my driveway both requiring significant repairs!
But, if you'd like to hear something funny (I laugh or I'd cry), to replace the first car I bought and had to reject, I picked up a replacement. It was a long distance sale, I was given all the details of the car (Citroen C4 Grand Picasso - a mistake!), videos, photos, service history and it all looked lovely. The deal was done and delivery was arranged - along with a fresh service and a brand new MOT. What could go wrong? What are the chances of buying two total dog eggs from dodgy traders hundreds of miles apart?
Car arrived exactly as described, lovely condition inside and out, everything worked and no knocks or obvious issues. I begin commuting to work (90 mile round trip). Then the issues began to appear it would cut out under acceleration, not limp mode but die entirely. Not ideal middle lane of the M5! It also leaks diesel from the back, literally from the first fill up of the tank - but a fresh MOT?
I took it to two local mechanics to see if I can get to the bottom of the issues and in short discovered the following:
- High pressure fuel pump is failing and requires replacing (£1,400 OEM) but the oil from it has contaminated the fuel system and to be properly repaired would require the system cleaned/flushed.
- Adblue system has been crudely removed and incorrectly mapped - explaining the massive amounts of smoke.
- Fuel tank is leaking
Trader was informed within the first 13 days of the issues, but ignored. I needed the car for work so had to try and get it fixed. I did ~1,200 miles in total in the first few weeks and week 4 was spent in the garage. I have written evidence from both garages about the issues.
Trader responded when on day 29 I rejected the vehicle as per advice from the Citizens Advice. I have everything recorded but in short he told me I was a scammer, they don't run a lease company as I have done, "thousands of miles" and I'm not entitled to reject it due to the time frame.
A response received on the case today and their points:
- Customer has done thousands of miles - they don't actually know how many miles I've done
- Offered me repairs which I refused - Their offer was drive it 3 hours for them to fix
- Offered collection of vehicle to have repairs which I refused - I didn't, they never offered
So, for those who have been through this whole process, what are your thoughts?
I would have thought the fuel pump issue would be significant enough but the fuel leak should have been an MOT fail as would be the Adblue removal.
Apologies for such a long post and yes in short, I have two rejected vehicles sat on my driveway both requiring significant repairs!
Fuel leak might not have been obvious if it was presented for test at a relatively low fuel level.
Adblue deletes are generally not found on the MoT and do not cause smoke. Maybe it was done badly but it’s a well developed bypass so that would be odd.
I’m also wondering how oil would have got through the HP pump into the fuel system. Not impossible, but highly unusual.
On the whole I’m thinking you should stop buying very commonplace cars from hundreds of miles away.
Adblue deletes are generally not found on the MoT and do not cause smoke. Maybe it was done badly but it’s a well developed bypass so that would be odd.
I’m also wondering how oil would have got through the HP pump into the fuel system. Not impossible, but highly unusual.
On the whole I’m thinking you should stop buying very commonplace cars from hundreds of miles away.
Whilst you don’t have to give them a chance to fix it, it’s prudent to in your rejection case
By fixing the car, you’re removing the evidence of what’s wrong with it.
Yes, you have a written report from your mechanic, but they’re not independent.
I know it’s inconvenient with them being so far away, but this is kinda the price you pay for buying a car long distance.
Also, if you’ve fixed it, why do you want to reject it?
By fixing the car, you’re removing the evidence of what’s wrong with it.
Yes, you have a written report from your mechanic, but they’re not independent.
I know it’s inconvenient with them being so far away, but this is kinda the price you pay for buying a car long distance.
Also, if you’ve fixed it, why do you want to reject it?
Steve H said:
Fuel leak might not have been obvious if it was presented for test at a relatively low fuel level.
Adblue deletes are generally not found on the MoT and do not cause smoke. Maybe it was done badly but it s a well developed bypass so that would be odd.
I m also wondering how oil would have got through the HP pump into the fuel system. Not impossible, but highly unusual.
On the whole I m thinking you should stop buying very commonplace cars from hundreds of miles away.
I.m guessing it's the fuel has contaminated the lube oil not v/v?Adblue deletes are generally not found on the MoT and do not cause smoke. Maybe it was done badly but it s a well developed bypass so that would be odd.
I m also wondering how oil would have got through the HP pump into the fuel system. Not impossible, but highly unusual.
On the whole I m thinking you should stop buying very commonplace cars from hundreds of miles away.
If it's a banger, a back street garage might be able to fit a used HP diesel pump for a worthwhile repair?
When buying cheap cars, always use a credit card for at least a deposit, unless you know more about cars than me and are prepared to accept all of the risks!
Years ago I 'won' at small claims but never got any money back.
A few people I'm close to have got acceptable outcomes by involving credit card companies.
Steve H said:
Fuel leak might not have been obvious if it was presented for test at a relatively low fuel level.
Adblue deletes are generally not found on the MoT and do not cause smoke. Maybe it was done badly but it s a well developed bypass so that would be odd.
I m also wondering how oil would have got through the HP pump into the fuel system. Not impossible, but highly unusual.
On the whole I m thinking you should stop buying very commonplace cars from hundreds of miles away.
Fuel leak, yes it may not have presented itself but I'd be surprised if there was no evidence of diesel in and around the area it's dripping from but benefit of the doubt, it's possible it could be missed. Adblue deletes are generally not found on the MoT and do not cause smoke. Maybe it was done badly but it s a well developed bypass so that would be odd.
I m also wondering how oil would have got through the HP pump into the fuel system. Not impossible, but highly unusual.
On the whole I m thinking you should stop buying very commonplace cars from hundreds of miles away.
By all accounts the Adblue system has been visibly tampered with not just mapped out, given the smoke under hard acceleration I would imagine the DPF has been gutted as well. Oh and the second mechanic found a coolant leak whilst he was investigating.
So far as I understand it, if the pump begins to fail it allows oil from the camshaft drive side through. Apparently a common failure and you can see the black contamination in the fuel lines.
And yes, I as much as I really liked the C4 and how it suited my needs I hunted down a 6 series diesel and bought it 10 minutes from my office!
Ronzx6r said:
where did you start with court action and did it cost much ?
cheers
I followed guidance from the Citizens Advice, if you're in a similar situation speak with them first they'll obviously advise but give you all the details needed. cheers
paul_c123 said:
Can you make one good car out of the two with issues?
Ironically the one with the most issues is cosmetically perfect, the one that could be fixed is tatty. I'm not sure I can be ar$ed haha Muzzer79 said:
Whilst you don t have to give them a chance to fix it, it s prudent to in your rejection case
By fixing the car, you re removing the evidence of what s wrong with it.
Yes, you have a written report from your mechanic, but they re not independent.
I know it s inconvenient with them being so far away, but this is kinda the price you pay for buying a car long distance.
Also, if you ve fixed it, why do you want to reject it?
The car isn't fixed. I initially said to the second garage to fix it and I'd work out how to try and get the money back afterwards but with further investigation they suggested I walk away from the car as you'd be looking at thousands to get it reliable. By fixing the car, you re removing the evidence of what s wrong with it.
Yes, you have a written report from your mechanic, but they re not independent.
I know it s inconvenient with them being so far away, but this is kinda the price you pay for buying a car long distance.
Also, if you ve fixed it, why do you want to reject it?
In terms of them fixing it, their suggestion was to drive it the 3 hours back to them for them to fix it. Despite trying to explain that the car cuts out. They're claiming now they offered to collect the vehicle but they didn't. All these issues presented themselves within 2 weeks of ownership, I spent another week trying to get to the bottom of it, garage had it going into week 4 and I rejected it in under 30 days. Given it has at least two significant issues, one illegal modification and a coolant leak, I'm not sure I want the car.
I'd be inclined to say if they offer nationwide delivery, they should also consider how they support customers nationwide too.
OutInTheShed said:
I.m guessing it's the fuel has contaminated the lube oil not v/v?
If it's a banger, a back street garage might be able to fit a used HP diesel pump for a worthwhile repair?
When buying cheap cars, always use a credit card for at least a deposit, unless you know more about cars than me and are prepared to accept all of the risks!
Years ago I 'won' at small claims but never got any money back.
A few people I'm close to have got acceptable outcomes by involving credit card companies.
Apparently oil can work it's way across the due to failing internal seals which then contaminates the fuel system. If it's a banger, a back street garage might be able to fit a used HP diesel pump for a worthwhile repair?
When buying cheap cars, always use a credit card for at least a deposit, unless you know more about cars than me and are prepared to accept all of the risks!
Years ago I 'won' at small claims but never got any money back.
A few people I'm close to have got acceptable outcomes by involving credit card companies.
It's a £6k car so not entirely a banger, well not to me anyway haha.
There are definitely some learning curves for me. Never buy an older Citroen and use a credit card for even part of the cost among other things.
TwistingMyMelon said:
Jesus christ
2 x Citroen picassos bought both with expensive issues and now ongoing court issues (almost).
The trouble with buying cars a distance away often you have to take it back to them when there are issues. Been there learnt that lesson.
I know right. I could have cried when the 2nd garage said to me, "Don't get involved with this car, you need to reject it" on the 2nd one. 2 x Citroen picassos bought both with expensive issues and now ongoing court issues (almost).
The trouble with buying cars a distance away often you have to take it back to them when there are issues. Been there learnt that lesson.
Ironically, the first garage isn't as long distance but the guy is trying to dissolve the company and has closed down the site and ignored me entirely. That has gone to the small claims, ruled in my favour but the chances of getting my money back even with using the high court seems slim.
OutInTheShed said:
Steve H said:
Fuel leak might not have been obvious if it was presented for test at a relatively low fuel level.
Adblue deletes are generally not found on the MoT and do not cause smoke. Maybe it was done badly but it s a well developed bypass so that would be odd.
I m also wondering how oil would have got through the HP pump into the fuel system. Not impossible, but highly unusual.
On the whole I m thinking you should stop buying very commonplace cars from hundreds of miles away.
I.m guessing it's the fuel has contaminated the lube oil not v/v?Adblue deletes are generally not found on the MoT and do not cause smoke. Maybe it was done badly but it s a well developed bypass so that would be odd.
I m also wondering how oil would have got through the HP pump into the fuel system. Not impossible, but highly unusual.
On the whole I m thinking you should stop buying very commonplace cars from hundreds of miles away.
If it's a banger, a back street garage might be able to fit a used HP diesel pump for a worthwhile repair?
When buying cheap cars, always use a credit card for at least a deposit, unless you know more about cars than me and are prepared to accept all of the risks!
Years ago I 'won' at small claims but never got any money back.
A few people I'm close to have got acceptable outcomes by involving credit card companies.
Personally any car dealership that won’t let me pay the deposit on credit card I would walk away from. So you’re stuck to the higher dealerships.
I even went to look at buying an Alfa Gulia Quad a couple of years ago from an Alfa main dealer.
1st barrier was there preparation fee. I don’t pay them. Full stop. After making my offer and telling them it was valid for 7 days but I’m not paying the prep fee, they said no thanks, then 2 days later rang me up and said ok no prep fee.
Went in to pay the deposit (£300) on credit card, there response oh sorry we don’t take credit cards. They charge too much of a fee.
Me no problem, I will pay the fee for using the credit card on top as in cash if needs be.
Sorry sir we don’t take credit cards. Ok no deal. They absolutely wouldn’t budge on the no credit card for the deposit. Clearly because of the protections it offers.
I'm going through it at the moment with a customer, we sold them something they sold on to an NHS hospital and we delivered directly there.
They are saying they have no proof of delivery to THEM. I have emails and a PO from them requesting it was delivered to the hospital, I have a POD to the hospital and an email from them saying they have been told by the hospital it has been delivered. We have paid the supplier, they are not paying us.
Couldn't be more cut and dry yet they've let it get to mediation which is on Wednesday.
I'll be annoyed if they don't instantly side with us.
They are saying they have no proof of delivery to THEM. I have emails and a PO from them requesting it was delivered to the hospital, I have a POD to the hospital and an email from them saying they have been told by the hospital it has been delivered. We have paid the supplier, they are not paying us.
Couldn't be more cut and dry yet they've let it get to mediation which is on Wednesday.
I'll be annoyed if they don't instantly side with us.
AB said:
I'm going through it at the moment with a customer, we sold them something they sold on to an NHS hospital and we delivered directly there.
They are saying they have no proof of delivery to THEM. I have emails and a PO from them requesting it was delivered to the hospital, I have a POD to the hospital and an email from them saying they have been told by the hospital it has been delivered. We have paid the supplier, they are not paying us.
Couldn't be more cut and dry yet they've let it get to mediation which is on Wednesday.
I'll be annoyed if they don't instantly side with us.
I had a small claim where the judge opened by quoting the law that meant we were right and the defendant was wrong.They are saying they have no proof of delivery to THEM. I have emails and a PO from them requesting it was delivered to the hospital, I have a POD to the hospital and an email from them saying they have been told by the hospital it has been delivered. We have paid the supplier, they are not paying us.
Couldn't be more cut and dry yet they've let it get to mediation which is on Wednesday.
I'll be annoyed if they don't instantly side with us.
He then suggested in-as-many-words that we go away and make a compromise deal so he didn't have to force us to
Griffith4ever said:
Have faith - the courts are on the consumers' side.
I do hope so. I've bought over 20 cars in my driving lifetime, only a handful were brand new. All the others have generally been a success. I bought an S Class relatively long distance, the car had a few niggles which the dealer had no issue me taking to a local specialist and covering the costs - which were significant.
I'd never look to scam a trader but if I'm buying from one and they claim (and charge) for nationwide delivery, they need to be aware of their obligations. I have taken advice and read up a lot. Their argument is they offered to fix it if I drove it 3 hours back to them which with a failing fuel pump I didn't much envy anyway, they never offered to collect it either and there is no evidence of that either.
All the evidence is in our Whatsapp messages, which I have documented and the situation shows the effort I've made but also where he's said I must be dodgy, and when I commented "don't panic the documents will be with you tomorrow" (slightly sarcastically) he tells me - "We only make racists panic".
The guy has not shown himself in a good light at all.
Alex_225 said:
I do hope so.
I've bought over 20 cars in my driving lifetime, only a handful were brand new. All the others have generally been a success. I bought an S Class relatively long distance, the car had a few niggles which the dealer had no issue me taking to a local specialist and covering the costs - which were significant.
I'd never look to scam a trader but if I'm buying from one and they claim (and charge) for nationwide delivery, they need to be aware of their obligations. I have taken advice and read up a lot. Their argument is they offered to fix it if I drove it 3 hours back to them which with a failing fuel pump I didn't much envy anyway, they never offered to collect it either and there is no evidence of that either.
All the evidence is in our Whatsapp messages, which I have documented and the situation shows the effort I've made but also where he's said I must be dodgy, and when I commented "don't panic the documents will be with you tomorrow" (slightly sarcastically) he tells me - "We only make racists panic".
The guy has not shown himself in a good light at all.
Is it a 'distance sale' in the eyes of the law?I've bought over 20 cars in my driving lifetime, only a handful were brand new. All the others have generally been a success. I bought an S Class relatively long distance, the car had a few niggles which the dealer had no issue me taking to a local specialist and covering the costs - which were significant.
I'd never look to scam a trader but if I'm buying from one and they claim (and charge) for nationwide delivery, they need to be aware of their obligations. I have taken advice and read up a lot. Their argument is they offered to fix it if I drove it 3 hours back to them which with a failing fuel pump I didn't much envy anyway, they never offered to collect it either and there is no evidence of that either.
All the evidence is in our Whatsapp messages, which I have documented and the situation shows the effort I've made but also where he's said I must be dodgy, and when I commented "don't panic the documents will be with you tomorrow" (slightly sarcastically) he tells me - "We only make racists panic".
The guy has not shown himself in a good light at all.
If so that changes things.
AIUI, if you collected it, you're on the hook for returning it.
Dealers will offer nationwide delivery, but they may charge for it, and the charges may be more or less than 'open market'.
You might consider whether you are blurring the main facts with arguable stuff which only distracts from the major issue.
My feeling in general when people want to reject cars is that they should consider paying a reasonable amount to get the fixed if possible, because there's no guarantee that your next pick will be faultless. I might draw the line at bodgery of emission systems as that may kybosh your next MOT.
Muzzer79 said:
I had a small claim where the judge opened by quoting the law that meant we were right and the defendant was wrong.
He then suggested in-as-many-words that we go away and make a compromise deal so he didn't have to force us to
I have no faith but at the same time it's so cut and dry that I'm looking forward to it. He then suggested in-as-many-words that we go away and make a compromise deal so he didn't have to force us to
AB said:
Muzzer79 said:
I had a small claim where the judge opened by quoting the law that meant we were right and the defendant was wrong.
He then suggested in-as-many-words that we go away and make a compromise deal so he didn't have to force us to
I have no faith but at the same time it's so cut and dry that I'm looking forward to it. He then suggested in-as-many-words that we go away and make a compromise deal so he didn't have to force us to
I have used Small Claims twice, both times successfully. Once over a motorbike, the other time a car. Both times I won - easily. The Magistrate was only concerned with whether the item was as described (ie working/undamaged) and he (both times) strictly adhered to The Consumer Rights Act 2015.The bike was 4 years old, the car 8 years old. The car dealer refused to pay, I asked the court to appoint bailiffs and send them round to get the money, which they did. The dealer had to pay their expenses as well as mine and the earlier court stuff.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff