Hypothetical question
Discussion
I was letting my brain wonder, and started thinking.
Many times over the years I've done the 'Snake Pass Dash', which has usually been enormous fun. However, a few times while in my bog-standard A4 1.9Tdi, coming down the hills from the Sheffield side towards Glossop, I experienced a rather major loss of braking power. Hot discs, hot fluid - whatever. The result was that the braking distance increased massively for a minute or two, until they cooled down.
If you were driving within the limit, but with these roasting hot brakes, and someone stepped out/drove out in front of you, without the option of swerving, who would be at fault if you couldn't stop in time?
How would the authorities know that your brakes weren't working properly at that moment (indeed what if you yourself didn't know the brakes were dodgy)?
Just wondering.
Many times over the years I've done the 'Snake Pass Dash', which has usually been enormous fun. However, a few times while in my bog-standard A4 1.9Tdi, coming down the hills from the Sheffield side towards Glossop, I experienced a rather major loss of braking power. Hot discs, hot fluid - whatever. The result was that the braking distance increased massively for a minute or two, until they cooled down.
If you were driving within the limit, but with these roasting hot brakes, and someone stepped out/drove out in front of you, without the option of swerving, who would be at fault if you couldn't stop in time?
How would the authorities know that your brakes weren't working properly at that moment (indeed what if you yourself didn't know the brakes were dodgy)?
Just wondering.
I'd say it would be your fault. *You* have to be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear with whatever braking capability yo uhave. And you have to bear in mind what happens to that capability when you boil the brake fluid or similar.
Maybe consider a gentler application of the brakes or a brake upgrade.
Maybe consider a gentler application of the brakes or a brake upgrade.
I think you would be at fault. The driver has a duty of care to ensure that the vehicle they are driving is safe. I think you could defend yourself if you have made reasonable efforts to ensure the vehicle is safe and then suffer an unforseeable failure, but I think that overheated brakes is a reasonably forseeable failure.
I think if someone pulls out in front of you then it will always be their fault. Your wrong doesn't make their wrong right!
But in that situation I would drive extremely slow or stop for a few minutes to let the brakes cool, to carry on with faded brakes would be stupid to oneself and others.
But in that situation I would drive extremely slow or stop for a few minutes to let the brakes cool, to carry on with faded brakes would be stupid to oneself and others.
volvos70t5 said:
I'd say it would be your fault. *You* have to be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear with whatever braking capability yo uhave. And you have to bear in mind what happens to that capability when you boil the brake fluid or similar.
Maybe consider a gentler application of the brakes or a brake upgrade.
Yep.
And consider a lower gear with less braking (you're not riding the brake all the way down are you?).
Parrot of Doom said:
I was letting my brain wonder, and started thinking.
Many times over the years I've done the 'Snake Pass Dash', which has usually been enormous fun. However, a few times while in my bog-standard A4 1.9Tdi, coming down the hills from the Sheffield side towards Glossop, I experienced a rather major loss of braking power. Hot discs, hot fluid - whatever. The result was that the braking distance increased massively for a minute or two, until they cooled down.
If you were driving within the limit, but with these roasting hot brakes, and someone stepped out/drove out in front of you, without the option of swerving, who would be at fault if you couldn't stop in time?
How would the authorities know that your brakes weren't working properly at that moment (indeed what if you yourself didn't know the brakes were dodgy)?
Just wondering.
You would get done for dangerous driving. As you are cooking the break fluid. They would not know you breaks want working and even if they did you would most likely end up inside for a stretch. If you cooked it a few time now would be the time too change you break fluid.
>> Edited by icedriver on Saturday 28th January 01:14
It is a defence to a charge of dangerous driving/careless driving that the driver, without fault of his own, was deprived of control of his vehicle by a mechanical defect therein of which he did not know and which was not such as he should have discovered if he had exercised reasonable prudence and, once there is some evidence of such a defect , the accused should be acquitted if his explanation leaves a real doubt in the minds of the Jury or Magistrates.
The principle being that if the danger was created by a sudden loss of control in no way due to any fault on the paret of the driver he should be aquitted.
So spaketh the wigged oines in R v SPURGE [1961]
dvd
The principle being that if the danger was created by a sudden loss of control in no way due to any fault on the paret of the driver he should be aquitted.
So spaketh the wigged oines in R v SPURGE [1961]
dvd
Thing is, the downhill stretch of the Snake Pass into Glossop is a long twisty and very steep NSL road. Its very very easy to get the brakes hot coming down there, even at reasonable speed, especially as the last (very very tight) bend before the town is taken at only 15-20mph. After that, you've got an almost perfectly straight drop down into the town which begins with NSL, only to change to 30mph after a few hundred yards.
I bet most people wouldn't even know about the brake problem until they tried to slow for the 30mph. Its the last few bends thats the killer for the brakes. Look:
http://maps.google.com/?t=h&ll=53.429992,-1.8894 (zoom in a bit if its too wide)
From the straight section on the right, down to the tight curve on the top left, its all a steep downhill - including the straight section on the top left into the town (Woodcock road). The road is also pretty wide, you could almost squeeze 4 lanes in at some points, although its SCL all the way.
Its easily done. I'm not making excuses or anything, just wondered what the legal situation was really. How would anybody know your brakes were cooked?
>> Edited by Parrot of Doom on Saturday 28th January 14:03
I bet most people wouldn't even know about the brake problem until they tried to slow for the 30mph. Its the last few bends thats the killer for the brakes. Look:
http://maps.google.com/?t=h&ll=53.429992,-1.8894 (zoom in a bit if its too wide)
From the straight section on the right, down to the tight curve on the top left, its all a steep downhill - including the straight section on the top left into the town (Woodcock road). The road is also pretty wide, you could almost squeeze 4 lanes in at some points, although its SCL all the way.
Its easily done. I'm not making excuses or anything, just wondered what the legal situation was really. How would anybody know your brakes were cooked?
>> Edited by Parrot of Doom on Saturday 28th January 14:03
Parrot of Doom said:
How would anybody know your brakes were cooked?
This is the thing, you might not know... thing about boiling the brakes is you can get the situation where nothing happens as long as you've still got your foot on the pedal, as the pressure keeps the water in the fluid from boiling. When you take your foot off and release the pressure, then it does boil and fills the pipes with steam, but you don't know until you try to brake again and nothing happens... Hence BliarOut's advice, but how many people do change their brake fluid regularly or even know it's desirable to do so?
Off-topic, but FWIIW, you were almost certainly suffering from pad fade, not fluid boil. If the fluid had boiled, the pedal would most likely have gone straight to the floor with negligible resistance and the car wouldn't have slowed down at all!
Pad fade isn't unusual, if you drive the car hard. Invest in uprated pads, but be aware that many race/fast road pads are rubbish when cold, so you may have the opposite problem - reach the junction at the end of your road after a cold start on a morning, or hit the brakes after a long spell on a wet motorway not using them, and you will need massive pedal effort to stop.
Either way, it is your responsibility to drive the car within its safe limits. That's like trying to argue that if you slid off the road and killed a pedestrian trying to take a sharp 90 degree bend at 30mph in a 30 limit, it isn't your fault because you were obeying the speed limit...
I've suffered pad fade many, many times, but to be honest it ain't gonna happen on any modern car if you are driving within the speed limits and at a pace below that which any BiB would regard as reckless/dangerous driving, so if you tried to blame pad fade, I'd expect the accident investigators to be asking serious questions about how you managed to get the brakes so hot that you were suffering problems!
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 28th January 22:14
Pad fade isn't unusual, if you drive the car hard. Invest in uprated pads, but be aware that many race/fast road pads are rubbish when cold, so you may have the opposite problem - reach the junction at the end of your road after a cold start on a morning, or hit the brakes after a long spell on a wet motorway not using them, and you will need massive pedal effort to stop.
Either way, it is your responsibility to drive the car within its safe limits. That's like trying to argue that if you slid off the road and killed a pedestrian trying to take a sharp 90 degree bend at 30mph in a 30 limit, it isn't your fault because you were obeying the speed limit...
I've suffered pad fade many, many times, but to be honest it ain't gonna happen on any modern car if you are driving within the speed limits and at a pace below that which any BiB would regard as reckless/dangerous driving, so if you tried to blame pad fade, I'd expect the accident investigators to be asking serious questions about how you managed to get the brakes so hot that you were suffering problems!
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 28th January 22:14
Parrot of Doom said:
Thing is, the downhill stretch of the Snake Pass into Glossop is a long twisty and very steep NSL road. Its very very easy to get the brakes hot coming down there, even at reasonable speed, especially as the last (very very tight) bend before the town is taken at only 15-20mph. After that, you've got an almost perfectly straight drop down into the town which begins with NSL, only to change to 30mph after a few hundred yards.
Its easily done. I'm not making excuses or anything, just wondered what the legal situation was really. How would anybody know your brakes were cooked?
Ever wondered what all those pretty signs saying 'keep in low gear are there for?
It's called engine braking...and if you are driving a vehicle with limp enough brakes that they overheat at legal speeds, you need to know about it!
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 28th January 21:48
Sam_68 said:
Off-topic, but FWIIW, you were almost certainly suffering from pad fade, not fluid boil. If the fluid had boiled, the pedal would most likely have gone straight to the floor with negligible resistance and the car wouldn't have slowed down at all!
Agreed. Also if the discs have high mileage and are worn thin they overheat very easily and become next to useless.
You were experiencing pad-fade, where the pad material melts and forms a glaze on the disc. As the disc cools, the glaze becomes brittle and the pads wear it off, restoring normal braking.
Both my Audi Coupe GT and my 80 quattro suffered the same, eventually cured by fitting Tar-Ox discs, Mintex kevlar pads and using silicone brake fluid, which is not hygroscopic (does not absorb water).
If you were involved in an accident that indicated poor braking, the glaze on the discs would be your undoing, indicating that you had been driving in a manner which had compromised the car's ability to perform safely and you would need a bloody good Brief to explain it away - his bill being the price of your freedom.
Having said that, your driving attention would be in a hightened state from your 'fast drive' adrenalin surges and you would be far more aware of the road environment than someone coming down the same road at a politically-correct speed, thus reducing the chances of a surprise attack by a pedestrian!
Swings and roundabouts...
Both my Audi Coupe GT and my 80 quattro suffered the same, eventually cured by fitting Tar-Ox discs, Mintex kevlar pads and using silicone brake fluid, which is not hygroscopic (does not absorb water).
If you were involved in an accident that indicated poor braking, the glaze on the discs would be your undoing, indicating that you had been driving in a manner which had compromised the car's ability to perform safely and you would need a bloody good Brief to explain it away - his bill being the price of your freedom.
Having said that, your driving attention would be in a hightened state from your 'fast drive' adrenalin surges and you would be far more aware of the road environment than someone coming down the same road at a politically-correct speed, thus reducing the chances of a surprise attack by a pedestrian!
Swings and roundabouts...
Practical: I used to experience brake fade in hard driving conditions and replaced pads with EBC Redstuff - and never experienced fade again. My testing included emergency stopping repeatedly (3-4 times) from 1.40 leptons or thereabouts in quick succession (on empty m-way). Was warned that they are not suitable for normal driving, but never had a problem with cold brakes.
Legal: I would suggest that the fault depends on driving style to some extent; someone driving aggressively should be expected to maintain awareness of brake condition and have suitable brakes (ie. driving within the limits of the vehicle), conversely a person in an unusually poor vehicle or encountering a long series of downhill corners without warning signs might not reasonably be expected to expect brake failure..
?
dave
Legal: I would suggest that the fault depends on driving style to some extent; someone driving aggressively should be expected to maintain awareness of brake condition and have suitable brakes (ie. driving within the limits of the vehicle), conversely a person in an unusually poor vehicle or encountering a long series of downhill corners without warning signs might not reasonably be expected to expect brake failure..
?
dave
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