Advice needed for Fixed Penalty issued to me

[Andy Oh]

I have just been stopped by two traffic officers along the A12 between Leyton and the Hackney turn off in East London.

I have been issued with a fixed penalty ticket which states that I was exceeding a 50 mph speed limit but the two officers could not produce any evidence as they stated there was no evidence and that their calibrated speedo was justification for pulling me over. When I was pulled over the Police Land Rover Discovery did not have the sirens or the blue lights flashing and I was jestured to pull over by the officer in the passenger seat and I duly pulled over.

Once pulled over I asked what was the reason for being stopped and one of the two officers responded by saying I was speeding, I immediately asked for the eveidence to prove what speed I was being accused of doing, which I believe I have a right to ask for, and the response I received was there was no evidence and that their calibrated speedo was proof of an offence being committed. I further asked if they had any photographic or video evidence or vascar etc. evidence and the response to that was no we don't have any evidence.

I was then asked to show my licence and at first I declined and the response I got was that I would be arrested there and then if I didn't cooperate with them so I produced my photo card licence. I was also pushed by one the officers as he wanted to see my number plate as I was standing in front of it.

After being giving the ticket and asking again for evidence the response I received again was we don't have any evidence and if I wanted to contest the matter in court I would be prosecuted anyway as I am a motorcyclist riding a sports bike and that it will be the two officers word against mine (these were his actual words). That to me stinks of victimisation. He also stated that I was lying on the tank in a riding position consistent with speeding, I replied by saying that I ride with my arms bent at the elbows for a more relaxed position and which naturally brings you closer to the tank rather than with arms straight and tense. It was also very windy and most motorcyclists do crouch down more in windy conditions to aviod being blown about too much.

Can any of you guys offer any help and advice as I am seriously thinking of contesting this penalty notice as the two officers had no evidence at all.

Thanks,

Andy





>> Edited by Andy Oh on Tuesday 4th April 13:12

[SS2.]

Andy Oh said:

Can any of you guys offer any help and advice as I am seriously thinking of contesting this penalty notice as the two officers had no evidence at all.

Unfortunately Andy, getting pulled by two BiB is just about the most difficult of all alleged speeding offences to defend

In cases where there is no speed measurement equipment whatsoever, the statements of two officers would be enough to convict - one officer forms a prior opinion and this is corroborated by the second officer. Factor in a calibrated speedo, and I think you would face a steep uphill battle.

If you truly believe you were not speeding then you can elect to have the matter heard before the Magistrates. Just consider for a moment though - who are the Mags most likely to believe, you or two serving police officers and their gadgets ??

[justinp1]

This is a difficult one.

To be frank where there is no physical evidence involved, there will be the evidence of the two officers saying that they followed you and on their calibrated speedo and on their statement they could put 40, 50, 60 or whatever they want and there is not much ast all you could do to disprove it.

The only way I can see to win such a case is to hire one of the very few specialist solicitors to defend you and there as some chance that they may have some angle as to add doubt to what has happened. However the cost of this will run into thousands, for the sake of a £60 fine.

My case which I defended myself and the solicitors costs at appeal as well as fine and court costs came to £1500. I knew I was being falsely accused but in hindsight I would rather have the £1500 back to me.

You dont mention if indeed you were doing 50mph. If you were or thereabouts, regardless of the quality of the policing, an a word, it was a fair cop.

[turbobloke]

If you believe there are legitimate grounds for a complaint about the conduct of either of the officers then that should be followed up as quickly as possible, later on it will look like you're after an excuse, earlier on with credibility it may make a big difference.

[Andy Oh]

How does one go about making a complaint as I was genuinely pushed out of the way so that my plate could be read

[turbobloke]

Did you get the numbers of the officers concerned? Or know the location and therefore where their HQ would be? Or the reg. no. of their vehicle? If so a telephone call or visit to the relevant police station would do it...if this is what you believe, and intend to do, make it clear you want their details in order to make an official complaint.

[Parrot of Doom]

Well call me callous, but:

1) You haven't told us what speed you were doing
2) You refused the officers request for your licence
3) You blocked his view of the number plate.

What do you want them to do - lay rose petals in your path and beg forgiveness for pulling you over?

It sounds to me very much like you were caught speeding (whether its safe or not is another argument), got pulled, got arsey, and are now having a big cry into your pillow? If I'm wrong about this than I'll apologise.

[turbobloke]

Parrot of Doom said:

Well call me callous, but: 1) You haven't told us what speed you were doing 2) You refused the officers request for your licence 3) You blocked his view of the number plate.

Fair enough - then call me what you like but
1) Why should that matter? It might not be known anyway.
2) There's no reason to carry a licence with you in this country.
3) Blocking, or just standing somewhere? Either way the tax disc would show it, and a polite request to move would do no harm.

If someone is asking legitimate questions in a reasonable manner it shouldn't matter whether the police like the questions or not. After all, even in the worst case scenario here of (tut tut) exceeding a 50, speeding isn't the worst possible crime to face to BiB with. OK hang on, yes it is

[Andy Oh]

Parrot of Doom said:

Well call me callous, but: 1) You haven't told us what speed you were doing I was doing 50 mph when they jestured to pull me over. 2) You refused the officers request for your licence I handed over my licence which you are not legally required to carry on your person to the officer after he said he would arrest me, he did not ask before this for my name & address 3) You blocked his view of the number plate. I was standing at the back of the bike whilst being spoken to so no I was not blocking his view, if he wanted the registration number he could have read it from the tax disk. What do you want them to do - lay rose petals in your path and beg forgiveness for pulling you over? It sounds to me very much like you were caught speeding (whether its safe or not is another argument), got pulled, got arsey, and are now having a big cry into your pillow? If I'm wrong about this than I'll apologise.

If there is concrete evidence that I was speeding then fine, but there is no evidence.

[Parrot of Doom]

Andy Oh said:

If there is concrete evidence that I was speeding then fine, but there is no evidence.

So the word of a policemen, nay two policemen, is in your opinion not enough to secure a conviction in a courtroom?

I bet you wouldn't apply those standards if your house was robbed, and the burglar caught but not with the proceeds.

[turbobloke]

Andy Oh said:

Parrot of Doom said: Well call me callous, but: 1) You haven't told us what speed you were doing I was doing 50 mph when they jestured to pull me over. 2) You refused the officers request for your licence I handed over my licence which you are not legally required to carry on your person to the officer after he said he would arrest me, he did not ask before this for my name & address 3) You blocked his view of the number plate. I was standing at the back of the bike whilst being spoken to so no I was not blocking his view, if he wanted the registration number he could have read it from the tax disk. What do you want them to do - lay rose petals in your path and beg forgiveness for pulling you over? It sounds to me very much like you were caught speeding (whether its safe or not is another argument), got pulled, got arsey, and are now having a big cry into your pillow? If I'm wrong about this than I'll apologise. If there is concrete evidence that I was speeding then fine, but there is no evidence.

Well there is, in the form of witness testimony from two BiB. YHM.

[Andy Oh]

turbobloke said:

Parrot of Doom said: Well call me callous, but: 1) You haven't told us what speed you were doing 2) You refused the officers request for your licence 3) You blocked his view of the number plate. Fair enough - then call me what you like but 1) Why should that matter? It might not be known anyway. 2) There's no reason to carry a licence with you in this country. 3) Blocking, or just standing somewhere? Either way the tax disc would show it, and a polite request to move would do no harm. If someone is asking legitimate questions in a reasonable manner it shouldn't matter whether the police like the questions or not. After all, even in the worst case scenario here of (tut tut) exceeding a 50, speeding isn't the worst possible crime to face to BiB with. OK hang on, yes it is

I simply asked if I could see evidence of the speed I was alledged to be doing and the response was there is NO evidence.....

I may be mistaken but I thought it was within anyone's rights to ask a legitimate question like that.........and as Turbobloke has said if he wanted my registration number he could have read it from the tax disk onthe front of the bike....

Also I was never asked my name & address and was told that the matter could be dealt with at the station after I was arrested if I didn't produce my licence.

[SS2.]

Andy Oh said:

I simply asked if I could see evidence of the speed I was alledged to be doing and the response was there is NO evidence.....

They don't need any..

[fergus]

As an aside, what law/process is there to stop two vitriolic officers 'making up' a speeding claim if they have a grudge against someone?

[xm5er]

What speed did the officers aledge you were travelling at?

I'm guessing that it cant have been that high if they got along side you in a Landy Disco.

[anonymous-user]

Parrot of Doom said:

I bet you wouldn't apply those standards if your house was robbed, and the burglar caught but not with the proceeds.

in this case there is not even any proof that a crime was commited let alone who did it or who the victim was.

i think the only thing we can take away from the pushing incident is that andy-oh isn't a known criminal and doesnt belong to a 'minority' group

[SS2.]

fergus said:

As an aside, what law/process is there to stop two vitriolic officers 'making up' a speeding claim if they have a grudge against someone?

Nothing really. Even if the accused provided credible independent witnesses, I imagine it would still be difficult to successfully defend such a claim. The best hope would be to attempt to discredit the officer's statements or testimonies in court.



>> Edited by SS2. on Tuesday 4th April 14:35

[turbobloke]

Andy Oh, like I said earlier, YHM, Checked your mail lately?!

[turbobloke]

sean5302 said:

If you wrongly accuse two BiBs and make a vexatious claim I reckon you'll find yourself stopped everyday.

Too many films? it doesn't have to be like that, and if the account is right there may be grounds for a legitimate complaint not a vexatious one. Regardless of the outcome of any speeding allegation.

[mg6b]

Andy Oh said:

If there is concrete evidence that I was speeding then fine, but there is no evidence.

Evidence can be what people heard or saw. That is a matter for a court to decide if it is reliable and can be accepted during the hearing.
Evidence can also be of a material nature. That is also for a court to decide whether the evidence is relaible and can be accepted during the hearing.

There is evidence. That evidence is what the officers saw. They need nothing other than opinion if there are 2 of them. They do not need a mechanical device. A mechanical device such as a calibrated speedo will corroborate the evidence of their opinion.

If you want to complain, you need to attend a police station and speak to an officer of the rank of Inspector. You do not need to complain to the Force where the problem occurred but in this case it would be advisable to complain to an Inspector in a Met station.

You could have been arrested! It sounds as though you were lucky you were not from your account of your conduct