Advice needed – very important, please help (car sale worry)
Discussion
Hi,
I have my car for sale and at the weekend one of the people who viewed it made an offer and left a deposit to purchase it. The sale price is just under £17,000.
He said at the time he may pay part of the money by bank transfer then the rest in cash the next Saturday when he came to collect it. I had no problem with this. He had said he banked with Barclays, so I assumed the transfer would come from there, and that I could check the name of the account against his driving license etc.
He says he works abroad, in Brussels and called me earlier today to get my bank account info – which I provided, and he emailed me to say he had made the payment from his Belgium bank account, for 15,000 euros and would pay the rest in cash.
I was a little worried about this, as its from a foreign bank account, not the Barclays one I had expected, so I went to my bank (Natwest) and asked what the risk was. They said once the money has been in my account for 24 hours it’s confirmed and safe, but if the money came from a fraudulent account (for example, hacked internet banking account) then it would potentially become a police matter and that could take weeks to come to light, and if the money was stolen, I would loose it.
So this left me a bit worried, so I thought it would be a good idea to politely request the guy makes sure he brings along his driving license (photo card) and a bank statement from the account he sent the money from. I also said I would sent him a letter to the address he had given me in order to confirm his address was valid. I worded this politely, and explained it was to cover my arse as it was a lot of money. Seamed fair to me, and I personally would have no problem doing it.
Next thing I know, he calls me, is absolutely ballistic – very insulted etc, swearing and livid that I was being so stupid and pathetic – no garage would ask for all that crap, and so on. I explained that I was not very happy with the international transfer unless I had some decent proof of identify and address.
He refused to bring the letter (I haven’t sent it yet, was going to this afternoon) on the grounds that he was so pissed off, and that he would only show me his driving license IF he felt like it. He also said “what makes you think the address on my license will be the same as the address I am having the car transferred to on the V5?”.
I may have offended the guy – but personally, I think what I was asking for was reasonable. It’s a lot of money, about 10k, not the kind of money I am prepared to risk over offending someone. I apologised etc but stood by wanting to see a driving license, to which he again said he carries it but whether or not he shows it to me is up to him. He also said he worked in banking and that there was nothing that could go wrong etc etc it was as good as cash, which technically it is but not if its stolen money. I would have much preferred cash, or at least a UK bank transfer would have been far better.
When he looked at the car he was very friendly, seamed like a nice chap. Spent a long while discussing it, he took a while to make his mind up and drove a hard bargain too. He was interested in another similar car, but after a few hours of looking at mind and thinking he decided to go for mine.
Finally – I really don’t know what to do now, tomorrow I will probably have 10k of his money. I can’t just refund it and say deal is off, because that means giving him the cash, that could technically get reversed (if it was fraudulent) and I am worried to continue with the sale because of his attitude towards my concern.
Help!
Very worried!
What should I do!?!?!?!
>> Edited by s a m on Tuesday 18th April 18:45
I have my car for sale and at the weekend one of the people who viewed it made an offer and left a deposit to purchase it. The sale price is just under £17,000.
He said at the time he may pay part of the money by bank transfer then the rest in cash the next Saturday when he came to collect it. I had no problem with this. He had said he banked with Barclays, so I assumed the transfer would come from there, and that I could check the name of the account against his driving license etc.
He says he works abroad, in Brussels and called me earlier today to get my bank account info – which I provided, and he emailed me to say he had made the payment from his Belgium bank account, for 15,000 euros and would pay the rest in cash.
I was a little worried about this, as its from a foreign bank account, not the Barclays one I had expected, so I went to my bank (Natwest) and asked what the risk was. They said once the money has been in my account for 24 hours it’s confirmed and safe, but if the money came from a fraudulent account (for example, hacked internet banking account) then it would potentially become a police matter and that could take weeks to come to light, and if the money was stolen, I would loose it.
So this left me a bit worried, so I thought it would be a good idea to politely request the guy makes sure he brings along his driving license (photo card) and a bank statement from the account he sent the money from. I also said I would sent him a letter to the address he had given me in order to confirm his address was valid. I worded this politely, and explained it was to cover my arse as it was a lot of money. Seamed fair to me, and I personally would have no problem doing it.
Next thing I know, he calls me, is absolutely ballistic – very insulted etc, swearing and livid that I was being so stupid and pathetic – no garage would ask for all that crap, and so on. I explained that I was not very happy with the international transfer unless I had some decent proof of identify and address.
He refused to bring the letter (I haven’t sent it yet, was going to this afternoon) on the grounds that he was so pissed off, and that he would only show me his driving license IF he felt like it. He also said “what makes you think the address on my license will be the same as the address I am having the car transferred to on the V5?”.
I may have offended the guy – but personally, I think what I was asking for was reasonable. It’s a lot of money, about 10k, not the kind of money I am prepared to risk over offending someone. I apologised etc but stood by wanting to see a driving license, to which he again said he carries it but whether or not he shows it to me is up to him. He also said he worked in banking and that there was nothing that could go wrong etc etc it was as good as cash, which technically it is but not if its stolen money. I would have much preferred cash, or at least a UK bank transfer would have been far better.
When he looked at the car he was very friendly, seamed like a nice chap. Spent a long while discussing it, he took a while to make his mind up and drove a hard bargain too. He was interested in another similar car, but after a few hours of looking at mind and thinking he decided to go for mine.
Finally – I really don’t know what to do now, tomorrow I will probably have 10k of his money. I can’t just refund it and say deal is off, because that means giving him the cash, that could technically get reversed (if it was fraudulent) and I am worried to continue with the sale because of his attitude towards my concern.
Help!
Very worried!
What should I do!?!?!?!
>> Edited by s a m on Tuesday 18th April 18:45
Suggest you open a new account for the Eur 15,000 and empty it in cash as soon as the money hits the account.
However the guy's attitude is a little strange. 4 years ago I was close to making a deal to purchase an ex works rally car for a few 10's of thou. When I asked some simple questions about ownership I was met with a barrage of abuse and the other side walked out. Seems the receivers who were the legal owners were looking for the cars for over a year afterwards
However the guy's attitude is a little strange. 4 years ago I was close to making a deal to purchase an ex works rally car for a few 10's of thou. When I asked some simple questions about ownership I was met with a barrage of abuse and the other side walked out. Seems the receivers who were the legal owners were looking for the cars for over a year afterwards
If he is unresaonable like that, then I smell a rat. Someone who was absolutely genuine would have no problem with you asking those sorts of questions. Ask him to put the shoe on the other foot then refund his deposit and tell him to 
off with his offer. You will find a more genuine person to sell to if the car is a goodun!
My wife runs a small car sales business (nothing as expensive as yours). If anyone starts that sort of malarchy with me, We withdraw our offer of sale to them and tell them to find another car as there is plenty of them out there!
>> Edited by mg6b on Tuesday 18th April 18:31
off with his offer. You will find a more genuine person to sell to if the car is a goodun! My wife runs a small car sales business (nothing as expensive as yours). If anyone starts that sort of malarchy with me, We withdraw our offer of sale to them and tell them to find another car as there is plenty of them out there!
>> Edited by mg6b on Tuesday 18th April 18:31
Yea, I am not remotely happy about it.
I have spoken to Natwest and they can't block/cancel the payment but have referred me to their fraud dept who I will contact in the morning, and they should be able to block or bounce the payment on the grounds that it may be fraudulent.
Basically - I do not want the money, I want it to be returned to the account, not going through my hands.
I have informed the local police and have a crime number, on the grounds of a suspected fraud, I wanted to get it logged and noted in case anything else happens. They agreed that it was very suspicious.
I am going to cancel the sale as it were, just need to ensure this payment is sent back.
Any other advice is very welcome.
Many Thanks,
Sam
I have spoken to Natwest and they can't block/cancel the payment but have referred me to their fraud dept who I will contact in the morning, and they should be able to block or bounce the payment on the grounds that it may be fraudulent.
Basically - I do not want the money, I want it to be returned to the account, not going through my hands.
I have informed the local police and have a crime number, on the grounds of a suspected fraud, I wanted to get it logged and noted in case anything else happens. They agreed that it was very suspicious.
I am going to cancel the sale as it were, just need to ensure this payment is sent back.
Any other advice is very welcome.
Many Thanks,
Sam
Sounds very dodgy to me. Exactly the tactics used by aggressive salesmen to frighten old ladies.
Return his money, and his deposit (minus any bank handling fees you incur), and tell him to shove it up his arse.
Make sure the money is returned to exactly the same account as it came from - not a different one.
Return his money, and his deposit (minus any bank handling fees you incur), and tell him to shove it up his arse.
Make sure the money is returned to exactly the same account as it came from - not a different one.
Yea – I am going via the Natwest fraud department in order to have the payment rejected, rather than creating a new transaction which was all the usual lot could offer.
I will send him back his deposit, that’s only fair, but I plan on sending it in the form of a cheque made out to the name I’ve been given and sent to the postal address he provided earlier. If he is genuine that shouldn’t be a problem.
I will send him back his deposit, that’s only fair, but I plan on sending it in the form of a cheque made out to the name I’ve been given and sent to the postal address he provided earlier. If he is genuine that shouldn’t be a problem.
The other point is that Natwest can't tell me WHO sent the payment, data protection act or something, so there’s no way of verifying the source account details against the buyer's.
I would have never accepted an international transfer on a car anyway, let alone after all of this hassle, but I only realised it was coming from an off shore account when it was too late. The implication had been a Barclays account, which could be verified.
I would have never accepted an international transfer on a car anyway, let alone after all of this hassle, but I only realised it was coming from an off shore account when it was too late. The implication had been a Barclays account, which could be verified.
s a m said:
The other point is that Natwest can't tell me WHO sent the payment, data protection act or something, so there’s no way of verifying the source account details against the buyer's.
I came up against a similar problem in a completely unrelated matter. If you give them the name you have, they can say Yes, or No. Which they are allowed to do. As long as they dont provide you with any new information their arses are covered!
tvradict said:
The other point is that Natwest can't tell me WHO sent the payment, data protection act or something, so there’s no way of verifying the source account details against the buyer's.
I came up against a similar problem in a completely unrelated matter. If you give them the name you have, they can say Yes, or No. Which they are allowed to do. As long as they dont provide you with any new information their arses are covered!
Ah right, they told me they could not even do that (at the branch). Will speak to the fraud team tomorrow, but still not accepting the international payment - that was never part of the agreement.
Its now cash or nothing. I suspect that will be the end of it.
s a m said:
The other point is that Natwest can't tell me WHO sent the payment, data protection act or something, so there’s no way of verifying the source account details against the buyer's.
I came up against a similar problem in a completely unrelated matter. If you give them the name you have, they can say Yes, or No. Which they are allowed to do. As long as they dont provide you with any new information their arses are covered!
Ah right, they told me they could not even do that (at the branch). Will speak to the fraud team tomorrow, but still not accepting the international payment - that was never part of the agreement.
Its now cash or nothing. I suspect that will be the end of it.
I agree. I had a similar thing happen with the sale of my TVR. I foreign buyer was interested, and would transfer the money when he viewed the car and his bank would send a fax to me confirming the transfer.
Could have been kosher but with £20k I wasnt taking any chances. I said that the only way I could go ahead was if I could be paid in cash, and the sale would be complete when the guy accompanied me to the bank and it was put into my account... obiously checked by the bank staff first...
He walked away by making excuses.
Just to add another "well done" for spotting something as plain as the nose on your face.
All to often others would've been so eager to get the money their common-sense would've gone out the window.
You were 100% reasonable, and anyone seriously genuine would've done all they could to allay your fears.
As you've done, better to walk away and have your car rather than chase after a bogus buyer for defrauding you.
All to often others would've been so eager to get the money their common-sense would've gone out the window.
You were 100% reasonable, and anyone seriously genuine would've done all they could to allay your fears.
As you've done, better to walk away and have your car rather than chase after a bogus buyer for defrauding you.
Yes. Well done.
If the chap works in banking etc. then there should have been no problem for him to xfer the money to his own UK account in good time to then push it your way if need be.
As has been suggested, the most suspicious thing is his reaction to your very straightforward and reasonable precautions; anyone genuine would have accepted them with good grace and understanding.
If the chap works in banking etc. then there should have been no problem for him to xfer the money to his own UK account in good time to then push it your way if need be.
As has been suggested, the most suspicious thing is his reaction to your very straightforward and reasonable precautions; anyone genuine would have accepted them with good grace and understanding.
If you went to the police and said you suspected that a crime had been commited or was about to be committed then maybe the money he paid you would be considered evidence and as such the police might want to keep hold of it, it would be up to him to ask plod for it back by proving that no crime had or was being commited.
Give him some sob story about you having to hand over your car as well, then you go balistic and give him some verbals.
"Best form of defence is attack"
Of course he will want the police details so make sure you have a crime number, a PC`S number, and a phone number.
>> Edited by slowly slowly on Wednesday 19th April 19:03
Give him some sob story about you having to hand over your car as well, then you go balistic and give him some verbals.
"Best form of defence is attack"
Of course he will want the police details so make sure you have a crime number, a PC`S number, and a phone number.
>> Edited by slowly slowly on Wednesday 19th April 19:03
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