Stopped by the plod and given a ticket
Discussion
Ok, well as the title says I was pulled over by a police motorbike today and given a fixed penalty notice and 3 point fine. I'm just wondering whether it was completely justified and whether there's any point in me contesting it.
So the setting is late afternoon on a B relatively wide road in central London. There's a learner driver in front of me going very slowly and I see that the road ahead is clear so I decide to overtake (single white stripe in the middle of the road). After I pull in there is a pedestrian crossing and a couple of people at the side of it, I slow down but see that they are not quite ready to cross (not facing the crossing and away from the kerb although near to it) so I decide to carry on. I should also add that at no point do I feel I was breaking the speed limit of 30mph.
I then see a bunch of police bikes on the other side of the road and I'm subsequently pulled over.
The offence is "CODE: 174, overtaking on the approach of a crossing"
Obviously driving a loud sports car meant they saw me coming a mile off and probably thought I was going faster than I was.
I realise I could have probably been a bit more patient but did I actually break the law?
What do you guys think? At the end of the day 3 points and a £60 fine isn't the end of the world but from past experience this could easily add a grand to my insurance policy.
Many thanks in advance for your advice.
So the setting is late afternoon on a B relatively wide road in central London. There's a learner driver in front of me going very slowly and I see that the road ahead is clear so I decide to overtake (single white stripe in the middle of the road). After I pull in there is a pedestrian crossing and a couple of people at the side of it, I slow down but see that they are not quite ready to cross (not facing the crossing and away from the kerb although near to it) so I decide to carry on. I should also add that at no point do I feel I was breaking the speed limit of 30mph.
I then see a bunch of police bikes on the other side of the road and I'm subsequently pulled over.
The offence is "CODE: 174, overtaking on the approach of a crossing"
Obviously driving a loud sports car meant they saw me coming a mile off and probably thought I was going faster than I was.
I realise I could have probably been a bit more patient but did I actually break the law?
What do you guys think? At the end of the day 3 points and a £60 fine isn't the end of the world but from past experience this could easily add a grand to my insurance policy.
Many thanks in advance for your advice.
I have not heard of a 'code 174' before but for the PC to know of it it looks kosher to me.
If that is the case if you did overtake on the approach to the crossing, I am not sure that there would be much defence.
That said I am sure a certain traffic lawyer could find a getout. For example: 'Mr PC, did you see the learner driver indicate left? Well he did, and perhaps this is the reason why my client overtook as the learner was coming to a halt?'
He costs £4000 a day, of which you will get the majority back if you win. It wont be a 100% sure getout but worth a try perhaps. If your insurance will be put up by £1000 (I would check the exact amount before proceeding) remember that most companies ask for endorsements in the last 5 years so times the £1000 by 5 to find a true cost to weigh up the pros and cons of contesting the charge.
If that is the case if you did overtake on the approach to the crossing, I am not sure that there would be much defence.
That said I am sure a certain traffic lawyer could find a getout. For example: 'Mr PC, did you see the learner driver indicate left? Well he did, and perhaps this is the reason why my client overtook as the learner was coming to a halt?'
He costs £4000 a day, of which you will get the majority back if you win. It wont be a 100% sure getout but worth a try perhaps. If your insurance will be put up by £1000 (I would check the exact amount before proceeding) remember that most companies ask for endorsements in the last 5 years so times the £1000 by 5 to find a true cost to weigh up the pros and cons of contesting the charge.
justinp1 said:
I have not heard of a 'code 174' before but for the PC to know of it it looks kosher to me.
If that is the case if you did overtake on the approach to the crossing, I am not sure that there would be much defence.
That said I am sure a certain traffic lawyer could find a getout. For example: 'Mr PC, did you see the learner driver indicate left? Well he did, and perhaps this is the reason why my client overtook as the learner was coming to a halt?'
Doesn't matter if it was indicating left, if it was still moving the offence is complete.
vonhosen said:
I have not heard of a 'code 174' before but for the PC to know of it it looks kosher to me.
If that is the case if you did overtake on the approach to the crossing, I am not sure that there would be much defence.
That said I am sure a certain traffic lawyer could find a getout. For example: 'Mr PC, did you see the learner driver indicate left? Well he did, and perhaps this is the reason why my client overtook as the learner was coming to a halt?'
Doesn't matter if it was indicating left, if it was still moving the offence is complete.
Completely agreed. However with the randomness of magistrates and the pressure of a good lawyer I have seen many more bizarre things... Someone got away with speeding by saying they were being supposedly chased by photographers...!
By the sounds of it this was a fair cop.
One thing I wanted to clarify is what exactly is CODE 174?
The only thing I can find is in the highway code which reads:
174: Give way to pedestrians who are still crossing after the signal for vehicles has changed to green
Is it actually an offence to overtake on the approach to a crossing provided you are within the speed limit and the road markings permit it?
One thing I wanted to clarify is what exactly is CODE 174?
The only thing I can find is in the highway code which reads:
174: Give way to pedestrians who are still crossing after the signal for vehicles has changed to green
Is it actually an offence to overtake on the approach to a crossing provided you are within the speed limit and the road markings permit it?
loaded said:
By the sounds of it this was a fair cop.
One thing I wanted to clarify is what exactly is CODE 174?
The only thing I can find is in the highway code which reads:
174: Give way to pedestrians who are still crossing after the signal for vehicles has changed to green
Is it actually an offence to overtake on the approach to a crossing provided you are within the speed limit and the road markings permit it?
The road markings don't permit it, it's overtaking a moving vehicle on the approach & within the confines of the crossing (zig zags) or passing a stationary vehicle according precedence.
J1mmyD said:
Erm ... isn't it as simple as having crossed the single solid white line while overtaking a moving vehicle?
(From memory, you may only cross this line to pass a stationary obstruction).
That's not the overtaking on the approach to a pedestrian crossing offence though, that's a crossing a solid white line offence.
loaded said:
By the sounds of it this was a fair cop.
One thing I wanted to clarify is what exactly is CODE 174?
The only thing I can find is in the highway code which reads:
174: Give way to pedestrians who are still crossing after the signal for vehicles has changed to green
Is it actually an offence to overtake on the approach to a crossing provided you are within the speed limit and the road markings permit it?
Code 174 will just be the police offence code relating to overtaking on the approach to / on a crossing ...... it is just effectively an 'admin' number from a huge list of offences and to my knowledge has no other meaning.
The alleged offence might not have been committed, i.e. the overtake was legal speed (and other)wise and completed before the zig zags. You say the police motorcyles were travelling (?) in the opposite direction and one at least did a U-turn to pull you and issue the ticket? There has got to be serious doubt about the ability of anyone who is a) moving and b) not exactly opposite the start of the relevant markings, to determine this.
Whether you challenge this is up to you of course, but if you do, consider the matter of parallax error in the officer's observations. This will almost certainly be present and introduce resonable doubt / balance of probability concerns. It can be demonstrated easily in Court. Do not believe anyone who says the officer will have been aware of this, or even compensated for it (joke time).
Edited to add, in view of the sensitivities here I should point out that this is not a criticism of police or police bikers but an aspect of the human condition that afflicts us all, also I'm not condoning overtaking in the approach to a pedestrian crossing, the above points are made purely on the basis that there might well not have been any offence committed i.e. in the interests of fairness to loaded.
Peace and harmony etc
>> Edited by turbobloke on Thursday 20th April 22:41
Whether you challenge this is up to you of course, but if you do, consider the matter of parallax error in the officer's observations. This will almost certainly be present and introduce resonable doubt / balance of probability concerns. It can be demonstrated easily in Court. Do not believe anyone who says the officer will have been aware of this, or even compensated for it (joke time).
Edited to add, in view of the sensitivities here I should point out that this is not a criticism of police or police bikers but an aspect of the human condition that afflicts us all, also I'm not condoning overtaking in the approach to a pedestrian crossing, the above points are made purely on the basis that there might well not have been any offence committed i.e. in the interests of fairness to loaded.
Peace and harmony etc
>> Edited by turbobloke on Thursday 20th April 22:41
I don't think the codes mean much on a national basis. Recent investigation of a code issued to someone I know suggests that they tend to be those used by the local ticket office for the local constabulary rather than national codes.
I may be wrong and some forces may in fact use the same set of codes, but I suspect not.
I may be wrong and some forces may in fact use the same set of codes, but I suspect not.
turbobloke said:
The alleged offence might not have been committed, i.e. the overtake was legal speed (and other)wise and completed before the zig zags. You say the police motorcyles were travelling (?) in the opposite direction and one at least did a U-turn to pull you and issue the ticket? There has got to be serious doubt about the ability of anyone who is a) moving and b) not exactly opposite the start of the relevant markings, to determine this.
Whether you challenge this is up to you of course, but if you do, consider the matter of parallax error in the officer's observations. This will almost certainly be present and introduce resonable doubt / balance of probability concerns. It can be demonstrated easily in Court. Do not believe anyone who says the officer will have been aware of this, or even compensated for it (joke time).
Edited to add, in view of the sensitivities here I should point out that this is not a criticism of police or police bikers but an aspect of the human condition that afflicts us all, also I'm not condoning overtaking in the approach to a pedestrian crossing, the above points are made purely on the basis that there might well not have been any offence committed i.e. in the interests of fairness to loaded.
Peace and harmony etc
>> Edited by turbobloke on Thursday 20th April 22:41
Thats some good advice there.
vonhosen said:
Erm ... isn't it as simple as having crossed the single solid white line while overtaking a moving vehicle?
(From memory, you may only cross this line to pass a stationary obstruction).
That's not the overtaking on the approach to a pedestrian crossing offence though, that's a crossing a solid white line offence.
They are both, I think, S36 - failure to obey a signal -- in this case a line on the road definied in TSRGD.
The offence for zigzag is complicated beyond belief, but basically not allowed to pass the nose of the lead vehicle (ie last one before the crossing) on approach to a zebra crossing. Unless it's a pedal cycle.
Which hasn't stopped for a pedestrian.
I think you have a good case, after all you overtook the vehicle and pulled back before the crossing, the police are there to enforce the law, not to intepret it, that is the judges job.
Is there a defined distance which means "Approaching a crossing", I think not, and if you had room to pull back, then obviously there was space to do this. Contest it, and it would seem to me that you were in a better position to judge the distance v manouevour then the police.
Is there a defined distance which means "Approaching a crossing", I think not, and if you had room to pull back, then obviously there was space to do this. Contest it, and it would seem to me that you were in a better position to judge the distance v manouevour then the police.
loaded said:
The line in the middle of the road was an intermittent white stripe which allows me to overtake. Now whether I was overtaking in the confines of the zig zaggy bit before the crossing I'll have to check..
I doubt you was, you would not have had room to pull back in before the crossing, or did you pull back after crossing the crossing?
7db said:
The offence for zigzag is complicated beyond belief
Vehicles shouldnt park on them either, but they do........ now that does annoy me.
Oh and do you remember the case of the road workmen painting the zigs and zags round the wrong way, had to burn it off and do it again, honest!
>> Edited by vipers on Friday 21st April 02:19
vipers said:
Is there a defined distance which means "Approaching a crossing", I think not,
Yes - it is the area with the zig-zags.
vipers said:
and if you had room to pull back, then obviously there was space to do this. Contest it, and it would seem to me that you were in a better position to judge the distance v manouevour then the police.
I'm not certain that you need to have pulled back in - ie I think you can cross the zig zag and cross the crossing on the RHS. But I'm not sure. Need to check and it's late.
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