Bucks Speed Limits - A RESPONSE FROM THE COUNCIL
Discussion
Morning All,
As some of you know instead of revising for my exams over the last one or so I have become a pain in the arse for the local council (which has been fun).
I thought you'd be interested in their response:
Firstly, I would like to stress that the Councils primary road safety objective is to reduce casualties on Buckinghamshire's roads, not raise revenue through speeding fines, as implied in your email.
The speed limit review is being led by a working group of Members, Officers and Thames Valley Police. The Council officers on the group have considerable technical knowledge of their subject area with specific expertise in speed management and safety audit. Both officers report to a Team Leader with again significant operational Road Safety experience and I am a Chartered Civil Engineer with over thirty years experience in highway and traffic engineering.
I have checked out the website, but cannot find the particular article that you refer to. If you can let me have the specific title I may respond further on the point you make.
We have promoted a number of increased speed limits.
I have very briefly set out below some elements of Younger and Older driver campaigns:
Young Driver Campaign
* For My Girlfriend (FMG) is a high profile publicity campaign aimed at novice drivers, especially males. It highlights the tragic consequences of driving too fast and killing a loved one. There are graphic posters recently displayed on bill boards throughout within the county and on bus backs.
* 3,500 First Car magazines are being delivered to secondary schools in Bucks.
* 87 young drivers have taken our subsidised Pass Plus scheme. Discussions are planned with Approved Driving Instructors (ADI's) to consider ways to work together to influence novice driver behaviour.
* Theatre In Education. (TIE) toured 20 6th forms during March highlighting issues of speed and drug driving.
SAGE: (SAFER DRIVING WITH AGE)
* SAGE helps drivers aged over 65-gain confidence to continue driving safely completing a driver assessment. Impartial advice is offered to drivers on their fitness to drive.
* The scheme was recently re-launched by Valerie Letheren, at a Senior Safety Event on 21st March.
* SAGE will be promoted by local GP's, practice nurses initially within the Wycombe and Chiltern & S. Bucks areas and ultimately acrross the county.
I am happy to arrange a meeting with one of our road safety officers so that we can describe both in more detail and also the describe the very broad scope of our road safety strategy and our other training education and publicity campaigns.
Agreed. If we meet we will be able to describe to you our Make the Commitment campaign that encourages drivers to stick to the speed limit. We have separate targets for reducing the number of Killed and Seriously Injured, Child and Slight injuries across Buckinghamshire. Our aim is to reduce casualties in all three classifications.
There is evidence in other parts of the country that speed limit reduction has resulted in a reduction in casualties. In Buckinghamshire we have a number of locations where this has proven to be the case e.g. A413 Chalfont St Peter - Chalfont St Giles (60mph reduced to 50mph and 40mph reduced to 30mph), A355 Beaconsfield (60mph Reduced to 30mph), B4442 Little Chalfont (60mph reduced to 40mph).
When speed limits are proposed, the average and 85%ile speeds are both taken into account (the Department for Transports' current view is that average (mean) speeds are a better reflection of what the majority of drivers perceive as an appropriate speed).
We will shortly be exploring how we might expand the scope of the Thames Valley Safer Roads Partnership to take on a much broader road safety remit, which will include assessing the merits of increased enforcement and education of driving violations.
I trust the above answers your queries.
From the Infrastructure Manager.
I think I need a chat with Paul to see how to continue this.
Regards,
Philll
>> Edited by pmanson on Friday 19th May 08:03
As some of you know instead of revising for my exams over the last one or so I have become a pain in the arse for the local council (which has been fun).
I thought you'd be interested in their response:
Q1 said:
You say that that the decision on major issues such as these are taken after "expert and very professional advice from council officers and others" - May I ask what qualifies them to comment other than being council officers? Who are these "other" people?
Firstly, I would like to stress that the Councils primary road safety objective is to reduce casualties on Buckinghamshire's roads, not raise revenue through speeding fines, as implied in your email.
The speed limit review is being led by a working group of Members, Officers and Thames Valley Police. The Council officers on the group have considerable technical knowledge of their subject area with specific expertise in speed management and safety audit. Both officers report to a Team Leader with again significant operational Road Safety experience and I am a Chartered Civil Engineer with over thirty years experience in highway and traffic engineering.
Q2 said:
You mention that you use "Highway experts" this doesn't mean that they are less likely to take the lazy route to solving a problem which the article here highlights -
www.pistonheads.com/speed/default.asp?storyId=13691
I have checked out the website, but cannot find the particular article that you refer to. If you can let me have the specific title I may respond further on the point you make.
Q3 said:
You talk about "rationalising" speed limits, will any speed limits be raised as part of this "rationalisation"?
We have promoted a number of increased speed limits.
Q4 said:
Could I see some details about the training for young and older drivers as I have seen no evidence of this training? Why are only young and older drivers and not middle-aged ones?
I have very briefly set out below some elements of Younger and Older driver campaigns:
Young Driver Campaign
* For My Girlfriend (FMG) is a high profile publicity campaign aimed at novice drivers, especially males. It highlights the tragic consequences of driving too fast and killing a loved one. There are graphic posters recently displayed on bill boards throughout within the county and on bus backs.
* 3,500 First Car magazines are being delivered to secondary schools in Bucks.
* 87 young drivers have taken our subsidised Pass Plus scheme. Discussions are planned with Approved Driving Instructors (ADI's) to consider ways to work together to influence novice driver behaviour.
* Theatre In Education. (TIE) toured 20 6th forms during March highlighting issues of speed and drug driving.
SAGE: (SAFER DRIVING WITH AGE)
* SAGE helps drivers aged over 65-gain confidence to continue driving safely completing a driver assessment. Impartial advice is offered to drivers on their fitness to drive.
* The scheme was recently re-launched by Valerie Letheren, at a Senior Safety Event on 21st March.
* SAGE will be promoted by local GP's, practice nurses initially within the Wycombe and Chiltern & S. Bucks areas and ultimately acrross the county.
I am happy to arrange a meeting with one of our road safety officers so that we can describe both in more detail and also the describe the very broad scope of our road safety strategy and our other training education and publicity campaigns.
Q5 said:
If I may quote you here - "Speed is frequently a contributory factor to the severity of an accident, even if it is not the cause. I am sure you have seen the advertisements on television recently highlighting the difference that even a small reduction in speed can have on the outcome of an accident.
Anything that we can do to improve public awareness of and compliance with speed limits can, in my view, only be beneficial."
So is your view that is better to reduce the severity of the accident rather prevent them altogether?
Agreed. If we meet we will be able to describe to you our Make the Commitment campaign that encourages drivers to stick to the speed limit. We have separate targets for reducing the number of Killed and Seriously Injured, Child and Slight injuries across Buckinghamshire. Our aim is to reduce casualties in all three classifications.
Q6 said:
Can you provide evidence that speed limit reductions actually reduce KSI rates?
There is evidence in other parts of the country that speed limit reduction has resulted in a reduction in casualties. In Buckinghamshire we have a number of locations where this has proven to be the case e.g. A413 Chalfont St Peter - Chalfont St Giles (60mph reduced to 50mph and 40mph reduced to 30mph), A355 Beaconsfield (60mph Reduced to 30mph), B4442 Little Chalfont (60mph reduced to 40mph).
Q7 said:
Have the council looked at all the research that has led to the 85% rule?
As if this is ignored the council would be deliberately taking the risk of increasing the accident rate.
When speed limits are proposed, the average and 85%ile speeds are both taken into account (the Department for Transports' current view is that average (mean) speeds are a better reflection of what the majority of drivers perceive as an appropriate speed).
Q8 said:
Will we see an increase in fully trained Traffic Police on Buckinghamshire's road targeting drink drivers, uninsured drivers, drivers arriving at roundabouts in the left hand lane then turning right, etc?
We will shortly be exploring how we might expand the scope of the Thames Valley Safer Roads Partnership to take on a much broader road safety remit, which will include assessing the merits of increased enforcement and education of driving violations.
I trust the above answers your queries.
From the Infrastructure Manager.
I think I need a chat with Paul to see how to continue this.
Regards,
Philll
>> Edited by pmanson on Friday 19th May 08:03
PetrolTed said:
To be honest (given the job they are in), that's a pretty reasonable response. Calm, reasoned (whether you agree with it or not) and polite.
I totally agree Ted, like you say calm, reasoned and polite, however they have skimmed over a few points - I mean I haven't seen any speed limits raised for starters!
I'm tempted to take up their offer of meeting up, not to shout until i'm blue in the face but see their side of all this.
Phill
That all seems reasonably balanced, except this huge throbbing thumb that was sticking out:
It appears that they are all up for blanket legislation rather than proper education. How can this mindset be altered? It is quite wrong.
Q5 said:
...So is your view that is better to reduce the severity of the accident rather prevent them altogether?
answer said:
Agreed.
It appears that they are all up for blanket legislation rather than proper education. How can this mindset be altered? It is quite wrong.
Council Numpty said:
When speed limits are proposed, the average and 85%ile speeds are both taken into account (the Department for Transports' current view is that average (mean) speeds are a better reflection of what the majority of drivers perceive as an appropriate speed).
Ok, they want to play the "lets change the goalposts to achieve our political aims" game, so lets just do the same back and increase the average speeds at every traffic monitoring location!
Accelerate towards every gatso scamera and try to set it off.
If you manage it, the data collected (no naughty photos) will indicate to even the thickest numptista council dept, that the speed limits need to be raised, in line with DFT guidance on average speed .
Also Look for the two rubber strips across the roads and accelerate over them to raise the average speeds they will measure, do it more than one each way!
If the DFT are going to use average speeds to set speed limits then we have to do our part to ensure we get them raised by raising the average figures they get.
Game on!
deltafox said:
Ok, they want to play the "lets change the goalposts to achieve our political aims" game, so lets just do the same back and increase the average speeds at every traffic monitoring location!
Already have been
Usually they are right where a slightly higher than average speed is possible too which is odd really considering their goal of taking mean or 85th percentile speeds. Maybe they will use the higher figures to highlight the un-lawful nature of most drivers to persecute them more!
Dave
Excellent correspondance, and what a helpful chap. Keep it up and press them for answers. Given the DfT's position on mean speeds, there is a brick wall at the end of the tunnel for you. I wonder if you can get as much our of the department.
One question:-
Do you mean careless driving at roundabouts, instead of what you have written? In light / no with-flow traffic that route provides you with the safest line through a roundabout.
No intention to take off-topic.
One question:-
pmanson said:
drivers arriving at roundabouts in the left hand lane then turning right
Do you mean careless driving at roundabouts, instead of what you have written? In light / no with-flow traffic that route provides you with the safest line through a roundabout.
No intention to take off-topic.
7db said:Yes that's likely.
Given the DfT's position on mean speeds, there is a brick wall at the end of the tunnel for you.
the quoted letter said:You can't help but think they refer in their mindset to the mode not the mean. The placing of mean alongside 85%ile is merely a device that 1) allows them to reduce speed limits below 85%ile 2) ignores safety criteria (again) and 3) sets up continuous reductions in the future...if more people obey a slower limit then the mean will drop, they re-measure it...etc etc to an absurd point where EVERYBODY ignores the limit to a degree and sets their own speed.
When speed limits are proposed, the average and 85%ile speeds are both taken into account (the Department for Transports' current view is that average (mean) speeds are a better reflection of what the majority of drivers perceive as an appropriate speed).
What a wonderful strategy for (not) improving safety and (not) giving credibility and legitimacy to speed limits.
Suggestion for thinking about only...travel over their speed survey strips as fast as you can. Ask for speed data whenever there is a proposed reduction in speed limit. Bet: they will have discounted the very high speeds in their calculation of mean speed. They really mean 'mode' I reckon, which is why they might do this instinctively.
If not, we can get limits increased by breaking current limits by a wide margin where safe, and enforcment is absent. Was this intended?
Muppets.
Good luck with the revision pmanson.
PetrolTed said:
To be honest (given the job they are in), that's a pretty reasonable response. Calm, reasoned (whether you agree with it or not) and polite.
Which is increasingly rare these days! More often you get some crappy response from the PR people or its an insulting "cos" response. Suprising and refreshing I suppose - like it or not....
off_again said:All true, but we shouldn't feel too good about it. Talking rubbish politely doesn't make the rubbish sensible.
To be honest (given the job they are in), that's a pretty reasonable response. Calm, reasoned (whether you agree with it or not) and polite.
Which is increasingly rare these days! More often you get some crappy response from the PR people or its an insulting "cos" response. Suprising and refreshing I suppose - like it or not....
Yep - all those limits happened a long time ago, the A355 being the last one (and a bit of an overkill reduction).
The B4442 (I grew up in Little Chalfont, never knew the road had a number!!) is a cracking bit of road indeed. To be honest, the whole stretch from Roughwood Lane in to Little Chalfont could justifiably be a 40mph limit. Dangerous bends if you don't know they are coming. Never ever heard of an accident along there though!
The B4442 (I grew up in Little Chalfont, never knew the road had a number!!) is a cracking bit of road indeed. To be honest, the whole stretch from Roughwood Lane in to Little Chalfont could justifiably be a 40mph limit. Dangerous bends if you don't know they are coming. Never ever heard of an accident along there though!
pmanson said:
Will we see an increase in fully trained Traffic Police on Buckinghamshire's road targeting drink drivers, uninsured drivers, drivers arriving at roundabouts in the left hand lane then turning right, etc?
We will shortly be exploring how we might expand the scope of the Thames Valley Safer Roads Partnership to take on a much broader road safety remit, which will include assessing the merits of increased enforcement and education of driving violations.
I *really* don't like the sound of 'expand the scope' - where's that going to end up?
puggit said:
Yep - all those limits happened a long time ago, the A355 being the last one (and a bit of an overkill reduction).
The B4442 (I grew up in Little Chalfont, never knew the road had a number!!) is a cracking bit of road indeed. To be honest, the whole stretch from Roughwood Lane in to Little Chalfont could justifiably be a 40mph limit. Dangerous bends if you don't know they are coming. Never ever heard of an accident along there though!
Ive been to a few down there actually, the problem is the blindish bend with the off camber which can throw you into oncomming trafic heading from LC towards chalfont st giles.
Also there are dodgey bends there and if you arnt prepared for them they will catch you out!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
All the roads listed in my opinion do need restricting in places. I think the accidents i have been to down that way are down to the numpty aspect as the causes are quite simply. Silly driving. Not necessary the speed but the mind set of, its everyone elses responsibility to look out for me as i want to get home / to work.
Misjudging speed is also a factor, quite a big one actually.
Reducingt he limitys in certain places will in effect reduce the severity of the incidents or reduce the collison totally as the numpty aspect will have more time to react, assess and advoid incidents.
All IMHO of course.
the quoted letter said:Much as I hate to p
When speed limits are proposed, the average and 85%ile speeds are both taken into account (the Department for Transports' current view is that average (mean) speeds are a better reflection of what the majority of drivers perceive as an appropriate speed).
s on the DfTs parade, but the mean speed is by definition not "what the majority of of drivers perceive as an appropriate speed". It is at best the speed which 50% of drivers feel is slower than an appropriate speed. (I'm assuming a normal distribution or speeds here).
Drove to see my folks at the w/e, only to find the A4010 High Wycombe to Risboro road has gone from NSL to 50/40, and looks like they are getting ready to do the Risboro to Aylesbury stretch next.
Love to know how they came to this idea that we need lower limits. The most dangerous section of this is at the bottom of Woodway, which has been crying out for a roundabout for years.
Love to know how they came to this idea that we need lower limits. The most dangerous section of this is at the bottom of Woodway, which has been crying out for a roundabout for years.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff