Flipping the bird etc
Discussion
Just wondering what the law's view would be if, say, you flipped the bird to someone - say they had cut you up or something - or you mouthed / shouted something at them - and they went nuts and attacked you or your car. It hasn't happened to me or anything - but I do occasionally wonder if it did happen, would it be considered my fault for making a rude gesture or would the completely disproprtionate response mean that the attacker took the whole blame?
count yourselves lucky you aren't in germany
decent sized fines for calling names, making gestures etc even very mild ones like the 'screw loose' twirling of the finger at the temple or saying 'dumb cow'
I got a letter from the cops following an allegation that i had 'raised one hand with a balled fist and the middle finger extended (die sogenannte 'stinkfinger' it said
)' from some numpty in a camper van (it was actually just a sarcastic wave 'thank you' for him flashing his lights)
decent sized fines for calling names, making gestures etc even very mild ones like the 'screw loose' twirling of the finger at the temple or saying 'dumb cow'
I got a letter from the cops following an allegation that i had 'raised one hand with a balled fist and the middle finger extended (die sogenannte 'stinkfinger' it said
)' from some numpty in a camper van (it was actually just a sarcastic wave 'thank you' for him flashing his lights)How about in this situation then...
2 cyclist in training, traveling at speed along a quiet road. One following the other at a distance of about 10ft, but sitting a foot or so further out from the kerb due to the water spray off the bike in front. A very loud horn is blared, following cyclist glances over shoulder, sees a car close so drops back a bit and moves closer to the kerb. Horn is sounded again, for a long time. Second cyclist somewhat irritated flips the bird.
Car accelerates past second bike, puts blues n two's on, pulls into kerb and stops, forcing the cyclist to hit the kerb trying to avoid running into the back of the police car, before receiving a lengthy bollocking about giving a police officer the "single digit", and riding two abreast being dangerous?!?!
Personally I'd have had the PC's number etc and repeatedly reported him till he was reprimanded, shame the second cyclist didn't if you ask me.
2 cyclist in training, traveling at speed along a quiet road. One following the other at a distance of about 10ft, but sitting a foot or so further out from the kerb due to the water spray off the bike in front. A very loud horn is blared, following cyclist glances over shoulder, sees a car close so drops back a bit and moves closer to the kerb. Horn is sounded again, for a long time. Second cyclist somewhat irritated flips the bird.
Car accelerates past second bike, puts blues n two's on, pulls into kerb and stops, forcing the cyclist to hit the kerb trying to avoid running into the back of the police car, before receiving a lengthy bollocking about giving a police officer the "single digit", and riding two abreast being dangerous?!?!
Personally I'd have had the PC's number etc and repeatedly reported him till he was reprimanded, shame the second cyclist didn't if you ask me.
mungo said:
Personally I'd have had the PC's number etc and repeatedly reported him till he was reprimanded, shame the second cyclist didn't if you ask me.
I don't know I wasn't there so can't judge the situation...
As an aside though, do you have any idea how many times as a police officer you hear people say "I want your number..."normally after I have arrested them whilst heavily intoxicated for a public order offence for which they have tried to resist arrest
... people seem to think it's the only way to get one over on you. Hear it all the time - anyone is welcome to my number as I do my job properly, some people don't like that but those people are often the dredges of society.
My response is often, "Who is sitting in handcuffs right now?"
I can well imagine that, in fact I can imagine you hear it most from the people with the least claim! I have only had the need to ask for a PC's details once, due to them intimidating me into committing an offence on the road when I was a lot younger - fortunately I had witnesses, and the chap in question was known for it, so my complaint was dealt with very satisfactorily
The second cyclist was of course a bit daft flipping the bird, especially when he was on a bike which is somewhat lacking in protection from the outside world, but for the PC to firstly have been overzealous with the horn when he had blues n two's, secondly show no concern for the cylists safety by running them off the road and thirdly read them the riot act about an offence they hadn't commited, showed they really could do with some re-training!
splatspeed said:
but there is the defence of provercation
Provacation is no defence
i didnt say it would work but it mittergates it
I think we can assume that some of you lads on here must have left school early.
PROVOCATION is no defence, but can be used as a plea in MITIGATION!
mungo said:
Ahh, you prefer the leather peaked number...
Young man!
Rarely wear any hats at all actually unless I have to stand at a scene guard or some exciting "hat job"
wasn't you in Bedford Place on Saturday night reading the riot act to a silver golf driver was it? The top of the head looked very similar but as the BiB wasn't wearing a dust mask, goggles and rubber gloves I couldn't be sure
mungo said:
wasn't you in Bedford Place on Saturday night reading the riot act to a silver golf driver was it? The top of the head looked very similar but as the BiB wasn't wearing a dust mask, goggles and rubber gloves I couldn't be sure
No but you may have seen me arresting someone outside Kellys on London Road just around the corner the same night - I was in the marked BMW 330d
Saw the BMW a couple of times when we were queuing for Orange Rooms, didn't see the arrest though - probably wouldn't have been the best time to come say hi anyway, I was possibly a weenie bit tiddly
mungo said:That's the law, and how ridiculous.
"Flipping the bird" is an offence under section 5 of the public order act... if you have no criminal record you could be dealt with by means of an £80 ticket. If you do have a criminal record then you might get charged to go to court.
The subsequent attack on you and/or your car could be assault / criminal damage / Section 4 public order act (threatening behaviour) depending on what subsequently happened.
Golden rule= NO COCKPIT GESTICULATION! Roadrage is a real mugs reaction / emotion
"Roadrage" in the sense of mindlessly using one's car as a intimidatory device or potential weapon is unacceptable.
At the same time, what on Earth is wrong with a gesture or word of protest, whether that be whilst in a car or walking along the road?
Britain and so many other places are filled with bullies and selfish scum whose principal mode of social interaction is to put themselves first and to hell with anyone else. The more that decent people simply step aside deferentially and allow the scum to get their way, the more that the scum will push us around.
Spend a few minutes walking along a busy city street in Britain and it's guaranteed that some lout in a car will try to intimidate you, the pedestrian, out of his way at a junction, nothwithstanding the fact that you have the right of way.
Queue up patiently along with fifty other responsible drivers into a chokepoint and see a moron try to overtake everyone via a filter lane that's meant only for turning.
Drive in the overtaking lane on a motorway, be slowed slightly for a few seconds by the car ahead, and look in your mirror to see a complete asshole tailgating you with a gap of less than a single carlength.
Approach an urban roundabout and observe the vehicle coming from your left that not only does not give way to you but actually cuts under the RAB against the grain.
Put on your nearside indicator, wait for someone to exit a kerbside parking space, then pull your car ahead of the parking space in order to back into it and see in your mirror the dinky car that's just nipped into the space behind you.
We see this crap all the time, and the law's answer is "Just be mature and ignore it, it's our job to intercede in these situations", when the undeniable reality is that there is a one-in-a-million chance that the true social offenders will ever be chastised.
Sorry, but if someone offends me with dangerous, selfish behaviour, I'm going to express myself.
If no one else is going to stand up for decent people, decent people should be allowed to stand up for themselves.
Chap on NottingHillGate Weds pulled out of the way for a blue light run. He was a touch slow pulling back out and got a toot from behind. He stopped, went back to the driver of the car behind and broke his nose in a single blow and drove off.
In my world I'd like this sort of behaviour to end up with a jail sentence, Flemke.
In my world I'd like this sort of behaviour to end up with a jail sentence, Flemke.
7db said:A jail sentence for which driver?
In my world I'd like this sort of behaviour to end up with a jail sentence, Flemke.
I presume that you mean for the puncher, and I agree.
But what if, instead of over-reacting and descending into physical violence, the guy in front shouted, "Just relax!". That's okay, right?
What if he shouted, "Just relax, asshole!" Is that okay?
What if he shouted "Fu ck off!" That I suppose is not okay, even though it's language that one can hear on the BBC most any night of the week.
And if - heaven forfend! - he had given the honker the finger, then the guy in front would be liable for the 80 quid and possible arrest.
Does this make sense?
When you're four you learn the rhyme, "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names will never hurt me." We're not talking about inciting violence or glorifying terrorism here, we're not talking about verbal abuse reflecting racism or religious bigotry.
We're talking about somebody unjustifiably being a jerk, and you respond in a non-violent, entirely harmless way.
The Highway Code specifically states, "You MUST NOT use your horn while stationary on the road...".
The punch, although provoked, was indefensible (a bit like Prescott's punch, which was never prosecuted). Do you think that the horn violation, which occured before the punch and was therefore unprovoked, should be fined?
The whole point is that epithets and gestures are often the only non-violent way for someone to stand up for themselves and protest anti-social behaviour. Why should they be banned?
Edited by flemke on Friday 2nd June 14:58
[quote]
Do you think that the horn violation, which occured before the punch and was therefore unprovoked, should be fined?[/quote]
In that case it seems a bit petty to take any action over the horn.
But in some cases people should be fined for using the horn innapropriately.
When I was in the 6th form there was a bunch of "idiots" who used to dive around in an old nova driving past all cyclists blasting them with there horn trying to frighten them.
Told local police who used to hang around outside school (it was that sort of school) and they did nothing.
For some reason sombody slashed all four of there tires when the car was parked, what a shame
Do you think that the horn violation, which occured before the punch and was therefore unprovoked, should be fined?[/quote]
In that case it seems a bit petty to take any action over the horn.
But in some cases people should be fined for using the horn innapropriately.
When I was in the 6th form there was a bunch of "idiots" who used to dive around in an old nova driving past all cyclists blasting them with there horn trying to frighten them.
Told local police who used to hang around outside school (it was that sort of school) and they did nothing.
For some reason sombody slashed all four of there tires when the car was parked, what a shame
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