Discussion
I cannot be sure if this is correct still, but I understood that ACPO guidelines would recommend prosecution starting at speedlimit + 10% + 2 mph = 35mph in a 30, 46 mph in a 40, 79 on the motorway etc. I have heard of 34 mph being set before as the limit - but it is really unreasonable. A police friend of mine (traffic) - usually offers the advice of keeping it under 40 when in a 30. I was caught doing 42 in a 30 mph - so by all accounts I should have got 6 points for that.
Challenge it on grounds that you did indeed believe you were doing 30 in a 30.
Challenge it on grounds that you did indeed believe you were doing 30 in a 30.
TUS 373 said: A police friend of mine (traffic) - usually offers the advice of keeping it under 40 when in a 30.
That was good advice then
My advice is when in a 30 mph, keep it under 30.
You will then not have a problem.
Challenge it on grounds that you did indeed believe you were doing 30 in a 30.
Speeding is an ofence of 'Absolute liability' Therefore as there is no 'mens rea' as such, you were either speeding or you were not.
What you 'believe' is completely imaterial.
Don't car spedos have to be callibrated within plus nothin, minus ten percent.
[devil's advocate mode]
Therefore by saying you thought you were doing 30, you are either admitting to driving without due care etc. or saying that your car wasn't fit for purpose.
[/devil's advocate mode]
Unfortunately I just see the occasional NIP as an occupational hazzard these days and pay up (got done at 82 on a clear motorway a few weeks back
). I'm not sure as to the alternatives to bring about real change. As has been mentioned above, this is clearly a case of a cash generator - this may work such that if you challenge them, then they may drop it - but more likely the speed has been turned down to hit targets, so they'll have you.
Until then, lose all respect for the speeding laws, rant alot and invest in a radar detector with GPS. Ted has considerately provided us with many links at the top of the pages to make this investment as painless as possible
.
[devil's advocate mode]
Therefore by saying you thought you were doing 30, you are either admitting to driving without due care etc. or saying that your car wasn't fit for purpose.
[/devil's advocate mode]
Unfortunately I just see the occasional NIP as an occupational hazzard these days and pay up (got done at 82 on a clear motorway a few weeks back
). I'm not sure as to the alternatives to bring about real change. As has been mentioned above, this is clearly a case of a cash generator - this may work such that if you challenge them, then they may drop it - but more likely the speed has been turned down to hit targets, so they'll have you. Until then, lose all respect for the speeding laws, rant alot and invest in a radar detector with GPS. Ted has considerately provided us with many links at the top of the pages to make this investment as painless as possible
.
I'd ask for the photo's, and if it was at all doubtful about the driver ID, then I'd say it could have been me or the wife driving. Both of us being insured, so up to the Cash Point Service (CPS) to decide if they want to argue the toss in court over such a trivial speed differential.
This brings an interesting arguement to the fore about not being to prove your innocent.
As most cars speedos are uncalibrated and have a margin of error even before taking into account differences in tyre sizes, especially if you have aftermarket alloys fitted, is it theoretically possible to get your vehicle speedo calibrated and to store electronically all your speed data on computer to prove your innocence? I know there are lots of race systems available to store this kind of data, but is it admissable in court. There is obviously a down side to this in that it could work the other way.
But Has anyboy done this, or have a car fitted with such a product? Could you adapt something like geodyssey to not only tell you when you are approaching an scamera but also to advise you on your own speed.
Lets face it, I would rather be looking out my windscreen to see for any potential dangers (scameras are meant to be in accident black spots after all)than to be clock watching!!
As most cars speedos are uncalibrated and have a margin of error even before taking into account differences in tyre sizes, especially if you have aftermarket alloys fitted, is it theoretically possible to get your vehicle speedo calibrated and to store electronically all your speed data on computer to prove your innocence? I know there are lots of race systems available to store this kind of data, but is it admissable in court. There is obviously a down side to this in that it could work the other way.
But Has anyboy done this, or have a car fitted with such a product? Could you adapt something like geodyssey to not only tell you when you are approaching an scamera but also to advise you on your own speed.
Lets face it, I would rather be looking out my windscreen to see for any potential dangers (scameras are meant to be in accident black spots after all)than to be clock watching!!
There is a system of this type actually on the market at the moment.
Its a datlogger type thingy(cant remember the name
) that records the last few minutes of every journey, so speeds and your behaviour are all recorded.
Not sure as its a good idea as ploddy loves to be able to get ya with yer own evidence...
Its a datlogger type thingy(cant remember the name
) that records the last few minutes of every journey, so speeds and your behaviour are all recorded. Not sure as its a good idea as ploddy loves to be able to get ya with yer own evidence...
A collegue of mine has just received a nip for 34 mph in a 30. Sixty quid and three points. I would have thought that there would be a little more le-way than 4 mph. This guy has never had a motoring offence in 35 years of motoring, and is understandably a bit pissed off. Question, should he just accept it and pay up? or is it worth taking further? At the moment he's just resigned to paying up. Any advice greatfully received.
Quinny
(clambers up on soap box)
He must NOT just resign himself to paying up. That is exactly what these people rely upon in order to take advantage of the general public.
The British people have an amazing tendency to "roll with the punches" that is being cynically exploited by their government.
Fining someong £60 for driving a miserable 4mph over the legal limit is absolutely INSANE!!!.
Is this man, after 35 years of faultless driving, to lose £60 as well as suffering the indignity of increased insurance premiums simply because some government pinhead buys into the fiction that speed cameras improve safety for motorists? No! A thousand times NO!!
What's worse is that the prosecution can't even prove it was him driving unless they bully him into incriminating himself - which, according to basic legal concepts dating back centuries, they are absolutely not allowed to do.
He mustn't stand still for this outrage. He (and every one of the countless Britons affected by this outrage) must fight back with every ounce of strength and shout from the rooftops "We're mad as hell and we're not going to take this anymore!"
It must be made crystal clear to every elected official (and everyone who aspires to being one) that supporting these abusive ordinances (e.g. speed cameras, speed bumps, etc.) mean only one thing: guaranteed defeat come election time. Send these cretinous louts to the political scrapheap where they belong and replace them with people who understand the meaning of the words in the title "public servant".
(climbs down from soap box)
Challenge it on grounds that you did indeed believe you were doing 30 in a 30.
Speeding is an ofence of 'Absolute liability' Therefore as there is no 'mens rea' as such, you were either speeding or you were not.
What you 'believe' is completely imaterial.
Sorry, I slightly disagree with you on this point. If for an example he was following the information displayed on his speedo and that speedo said 30 mph - then he would have no reason to believe that he was speeding. Speed measuring device takes a reading and gets 34 mph for his indicated speed of 30 mph. Yes, he has committed an offence and broken the speed limit - but without knowing it. However, as the margin of error at 30 mph indicated on speedo could be in the real world +/- 10% I do not think it unreasonable to appeal. I thought this would be admissable as 'mitigating circumstances' and come down to a judgement call for what is an offence on the very borderline.
I think it is a complete waste of police time to be hauling people up for a 4 mph discrepancy wherever and whatever that road may be when a change in day to day weather conditions will probably affect a vehicle's braking distance to a greater extent
Madcop - have the ACPO guidelines I stated of speed limit+10%+ 2 mph changed (or was that duff informtaion for that matter)? Also, would you personally set a laser gun to 34 mph (surely this would be indiscriminate policing / zero tolerance)?
The advice from my friend was after I was NIP'd for 42 in a 30 mph zone. He generally would not bother too much about someone doing 39 mph unless the driver was behaving in an otherwise dangerous manner. He also told me that local GATSOs are set to trip at 43 mph in the 30 mph zones. No doubt this will vary from one area to another.
>> Edited by TUS 373 on Thursday 30th January 17:39
As mentioned above a spedo that is +/-10% is illegal. They have to be within +0%, -10%.
TUS 373 said: However, as the margin of error at 30 mph indicated on speedo could be in the real world +/- 10%.
Anyway, would you apply the same arguement to drink driving - As far as I know Officer I was under the limit, but didn't have the equipment to confirm this.
In answer to the thread title, No it isn't fair.
The ABD should publish a list of what to do when you are caught like this. They shouldn't encourage law breaking, but make it difficult to collect speed taxes.
Unfortunately, the only people that suffer will be the poor
's and assistants that process the claims, but maybe the policy makers would take notice? :resignedtofightinglosingbattle:
TUS 373 said:
Sorry, I slightly disagree with you on this point. If for an example he was following the information displayed on his speedo and that speedo said 30 mph - then he would have no reason to believe that he was speeding. Speed measuring device takes a reading and gets 34 mph for his indicated speed of 30 mph. Yes, he has committed an offence and broken the speed limit - but without knowing it. However, as the margin of error at 30 mph indicated on speedo could be in the real world +/- 10% I do not think it unreasonable to appeal. I thought this would be admissable as 'mitigating circumstances' and come down to a judgement call for what is an offence on the very borderline.
Madcop's entirely right here. Speeding is a strict liability offence and if the CPS were anal enough to take this to court then the speedo not working would not be a defence. 'Mitigation' when successful only effects the sentence/punishment dished out, it does not effect whether or not the individual is guilty of an offence.
OK Speeding is an absolute offence. You are required to have an instrument (speedo) that measures your speed to within +/- 10%. But the measurement of speed by the authorities is also by an instrument and that too is subject to an error. Vascar was, if used in accordance with makers instructions, subject to a combined error of +/- 2%. Although the reading was given to 2 decimal places and the ticket irrationally recorded your speed as 96.99 mile/h such precison was completely bogus.
And the same with modern measurements despite the lies told by those in whose interests it is to claim ridiculous precison and imply accuracy.
That is why the ACPO guidelines are +10% + 2 mile/h.
Challenge it - I have and won
And the same with modern measurements despite the lies told by those in whose interests it is to claim ridiculous precison and imply accuracy.
That is why the ACPO guidelines are +10% + 2 mile/h.
Challenge it - I have and won
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff