North Yorkshire's Road Safety Campain Works
Discussion
Full story here: www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=1084&ArticleID=1580460
Just a few snippets of info from the story.....
"We've been able to combine education with enforcement to improve our road safety record."
"In addition, £10.5m has been invested since 2001 in 350 engineering projects to make stretches of road safer which has reduced the number of casualties at each location by an average of 38 per cent."
"The partnership between the county council and the police is reducing deaths and serious injuries on North Yorkshire's roads at a higher rate than the national average."
Am I right in saying that North Yorkshire has NO fixed speed camera sites?
Yet they still manage to reduce casualties by 38% simply by re-engineering roads and educating people?
Shock! Horror! Who would have thought it?
Discuss.........
Just a few snippets of info from the story.....
"We've been able to combine education with enforcement to improve our road safety record."
"In addition, £10.5m has been invested since 2001 in 350 engineering projects to make stretches of road safer which has reduced the number of casualties at each location by an average of 38 per cent."
"The partnership between the county council and the police is reducing deaths and serious injuries on North Yorkshire's roads at a higher rate than the national average."
Am I right in saying that North Yorkshire has NO fixed speed camera sites?
Yet they still manage to reduce casualties by 38% simply by re-engineering roads and educating people?
Shock! Horror! Who would have thought it?
Discuss.........
There is one thing that concerns me about the article though, and that's the reference to motorcycle deaths.
The implication would appear to be that most of the deaths are due to the fault of the cyclists themselves: the reality in my experience is completely the reverse.
Most of the KSIs I have seen involving bikers were caused by motorists who just didn't see them; and the resultant injuries are dramatic because of the bikers inherent vulnerability.
The reference to middle aged bikers is just utterly typical of the ageism rife in this country. The majority of police bikers are mid thirties plus and are mostly superb riders.
Before any of you start on about specialised training, you are either born to ride a bike or you're not, it's that simple.
You can only hone skills and enhance safety, but the basic talent is a natural one and has to be there in the first place.
It is important that the actual cause of accidents involving bikers is properly uncerstood before implementing policies to prevent or reduce them.
The implication would appear to be that most of the deaths are due to the fault of the cyclists themselves: the reality in my experience is completely the reverse.
Most of the KSIs I have seen involving bikers were caused by motorists who just didn't see them; and the resultant injuries are dramatic because of the bikers inherent vulnerability.
The reference to middle aged bikers is just utterly typical of the ageism rife in this country. The majority of police bikers are mid thirties plus and are mostly superb riders.
Before any of you start on about specialised training, you are either born to ride a bike or you're not, it's that simple.
You can only hone skills and enhance safety, but the basic talent is a natural one and has to be there in the first place.
It is important that the actual cause of accidents involving bikers is properly uncerstood before implementing policies to prevent or reduce them.
jith
I'd agree that most bike accidents were caused by motorists inattention (we did some research in 1966 with help of Bristol Police which proved this), but ageism is not the case, as......
"Born again" bikers are getting killed more than younger ones (here in Germany too) due to the fact that they used to ride a 250 Ariel or similar and now want/ride eg a 1100 Kwacker and totally underestimate the extreme difference in roadholding, acceleration, tyre technology etc and bump.....all IMHO of course.....
Good to see that sensible road policing in North Yorks gives the lie to this stupid governments rip-off "safety policies"
I'd agree that most bike accidents were caused by motorists inattention (we did some research in 1966 with help of Bristol Police which proved this), but ageism is not the case, as......
"Born again" bikers are getting killed more than younger ones (here in Germany too) due to the fact that they used to ride a 250 Ariel or similar and now want/ride eg a 1100 Kwacker and totally underestimate the extreme difference in roadholding, acceleration, tyre technology etc and bump.....all IMHO of course.....
Good to see that sensible road policing in North Yorks gives the lie to this stupid governments rip-off "safety policies"
jith said:
There is one thing that concerns me about the article though, and that's the reference to motorcycle deaths.
The implication would appear to be that most of the deaths are due to the fault of the cyclists themselves: the reality in my experience is completely the reverse.
Most of the KSIs I have seen involving bikers were caused by motorists who just didn't see them; and the resultant injuries are dramatic because of the bikers inherent vulnerability.
The reference to middle aged bikers is just utterly typical of the ageism rife in this country. The majority of police bikers are mid thirties plus and are mostly superb riders.
Before any of you start on about specialised training, you are either born to ride a bike or you're not, it's that simple.
You can only hone skills and enhance safety, but the basic talent is a natural one and has to be there in the first place.
It is important that the actual cause of accidents involving bikers is properly uncerstood before implementing policies to prevent or reduce them.
The implication would appear to be that most of the deaths are due to the fault of the cyclists themselves: the reality in my experience is completely the reverse.
Most of the KSIs I have seen involving bikers were caused by motorists who just didn't see them; and the resultant injuries are dramatic because of the bikers inherent vulnerability.
The reference to middle aged bikers is just utterly typical of the ageism rife in this country. The majority of police bikers are mid thirties plus and are mostly superb riders.
Before any of you start on about specialised training, you are either born to ride a bike or you're not, it's that simple.
You can only hone skills and enhance safety, but the basic talent is a natural one and has to be there in the first place.
It is important that the actual cause of accidents involving bikers is properly uncerstood before implementing policies to prevent or reduce them.
If you ride quickly (as many bikers do) then you MUST assume people won't see you. Nearly took a biker out last year when I pulled out of a tight T junction where you have to ease out to see. As I did pull out a biker went passed at what must have been way in excess of a ton at full tilt. There was NO WAY I could have avoided him or seen him in time. It was a 30 limit too, if I would have hit him, it would have plainly been his fault, I doubt he'd have survived if he'd T-Boned me.
Edited by cptsideways on Friday 23 June 12:16
To be fair though in my understanding North Yorks, like some other counties with an abundance of good driver roads in proximity to centres of population, have had more than their share of single vehicle incidents. By that I mean someone hitting scenery due to misjudgement or simply DLAP.
Frankly the most outrageous riding I see round our way is on scooters and their ilk. Yes we have bikers who ride quickly, sometimes very quickly regardless of rider age, but the scooter riders seem to believe themselves and others immortal.
Example, last week on school duty, side road passing primary and secondary school at 15:20pm so kids literally everywhere, would you believe 3 attempts at a wheelie? If I had not seen it with my own eyes.......
Frankly the most outrageous riding I see round our way is on scooters and their ilk. Yes we have bikers who ride quickly, sometimes very quickly regardless of rider age, but the scooter riders seem to believe themselves and others immortal.
Example, last week on school duty, side road passing primary and secondary school at 15:20pm so kids literally everywhere, would you believe 3 attempts at a wheelie? If I had not seen it with my own eyes.......
JMGS4 said:
jith
I'd agree that most bike accidents were caused by motorists inattention (we did some research in 1966 with help of Bristol Police which proved this), but ageism is not the case, as......
"Born again" bikers are getting killed more than younger ones (here in Germany too) due to the fact that they used to ride a 250 Ariel or similar and now want/ride eg a 1100 Kwacker and totally underestimate the extreme difference in roadholding, acceleration, tyre technology etc and bump.....all IMHO of course.....
Good to see that sensible road policing in North Yorks gives the lie to this stupid governments rip-off "safety policies"
I'd agree that most bike accidents were caused by motorists inattention (we did some research in 1966 with help of Bristol Police which proved this), but ageism is not the case, as......
"Born again" bikers are getting killed more than younger ones (here in Germany too) due to the fact that they used to ride a 250 Ariel or similar and now want/ride eg a 1100 Kwacker and totally underestimate the extreme difference in roadholding, acceleration, tyre technology etc and bump.....all IMHO of course.....
Good to see that sensible road policing in North Yorks gives the lie to this stupid governments rip-off "safety policies"
Well to counter that, I stopped riding bikes for two reasons.
The first was the love of my three children and the assumption that they needed a daddy for the rest of their lives not just a couple of years!
The second was due to the number of near death experiences with motorists, to the point where it was almost a daily occurrence.
Your submissions about advancing technology I think are correct accept you have them in reverse.
My last bike was a Kawasaki Z900 Samurai: the older bikers on here are probably gasping with memories of the utterly mental acceleration of these machines, you dismounted trembling with adrenalin!
But they also had the quaint inbuilt ability to change lanes on the motorway at around 125MPH without you flexing a muscle; it was apparently due to the frame microscopically flexing due to torque and suspension reaction.
Nevertheless it propelled me into the path of an overtaking 911 one day, the driver must have thought I was a member of the local Hell's Angels, and my biking days were over!
I was also privileged to have ran a Vincent Black Shadow for a while.
Now if you are trying to tell me that myself or other older riders cannot handle the technology of a modern Japanese superbike, then I would truly love to see some of the younger riders attempting to ride my Black Shadow up Loch Lomondside; in fact I would love to see them try to get it to fire up!!
The reality is that despite the increased levels of CAR technology and the ability of the average saloon car to stop or swerve in a manner previously undreamed of, the standard of driving is decreasing by the year; drivers are taught nothing about bikers, whereas most bikers are also car drivers and understand the problems.
I had the luck to drive a Black Shadow and it was a difficult SOB, the girdraulic forks semed to have a mind of their own but the engine was a cracker, surely the best bike around at the time must have been the Norvin a la Ogri.
To add to the old versus new debate. The bikes I grew up on in the 70s all had pretty good power as engine development surged ahead, frame technology lagged behind though and the result was usually something pretty rapid with piss poor handling. The Z1 springs to mind and as such you were pretty well informed as you neared the limit by some alarming handling and, unless you were suicidal, backed off with a nice tank slapper for your temerity. New machines have racetrack honed handling and you can reach balistic speeds with nary a tremor, so much so that you can be on the limit without really knowing it and when it does go pear shaped...........IMO of course
To add to the old versus new debate. The bikes I grew up on in the 70s all had pretty good power as engine development surged ahead, frame technology lagged behind though and the result was usually something pretty rapid with piss poor handling. The Z1 springs to mind and as such you were pretty well informed as you neared the limit by some alarming handling and, unless you were suicidal, backed off with a nice tank slapper for your temerity. New machines have racetrack honed handling and you can reach balistic speeds with nary a tremor, so much so that you can be on the limit without really knowing it and when it does go pear shaped...........IMO of course
jith said:
The implication would appear to be that most of the deaths are due to the fault of the cyclists themselves: the reality in my experience is completely the reverse.
Most of the KSIs I have seen involving bikers were caused by motorists who just didn't see them
Well, this could be one of those interpretation things. Just because the motorist doesn't see the biker it's not necessarily their fault, it could just be the result of something else. Can a biker not make themselves more visible by their choice of road position? Most of the KSIs I have seen involving bikers were caused by motorists who just didn't see them
On the A65 (in North Yorkshire, ironically) I often have bikers hanging on my rear wing, behind the C-Pillar, looking for a pass, and you simply can't see them there. If you're in a queue of traffic, you can't see them approaching (hopping down the queue) from behind, so you don't know that they are there. If you're behind another vehicle and go for a pass, and the biker does the same, you're likely to knock him off without ever knowing he (or indeed she) was there! The whole thing could be avoided by the biker pulling into the centre of the lane for a few seconds to make the car in front aware, but they never do.
North Yorkshire is literally covered in trains of bikers at the weekend, some of them are v. responsibly and experienced, some will be born again nutters and some will be plain old nutters. Now just like various other parts of the country, we have particularly good roads for hooning around on bikes.
We all know that a lot of car drivers don't see bikes and some of them hit said bikes, I have seen a few myself recently. But there are also a lot of bikers hooning around these roads riding dangerously for the conditions.
Anything that reduces death, either by educating bikers or drivers is a good thing! For instance on a very pleasant hooning road up here the police gather together the hooning motorcylcist and shoot them, no no, they take them out with a police biker and show them how to ride said road fast, but safe. That has got to be good, free speeding advice and tuition and how to not kill yourself.
As a driver, I don't have a bike, who also enjoys these roads, it is very hard to see a bike when it comes screaming out of now where flashing down an unexpected side of you. Bikers have to take responsibility too!
In yorkshire we also suffer from not_driving_above_30_and_breaking_whenever_a_car_comes_the_other_way_or_there_is_a_slight_kink_in_the_road_itis. This creates very fustrating situations where you end up in a long snake of slow moving traffic. Maybe its time the police addressed this too.
We all know that a lot of car drivers don't see bikes and some of them hit said bikes, I have seen a few myself recently. But there are also a lot of bikers hooning around these roads riding dangerously for the conditions.
Anything that reduces death, either by educating bikers or drivers is a good thing! For instance on a very pleasant hooning road up here the police gather together the hooning motorcylcist and shoot them, no no, they take them out with a police biker and show them how to ride said road fast, but safe. That has got to be good, free speeding advice and tuition and how to not kill yourself.
As a driver, I don't have a bike, who also enjoys these roads, it is very hard to see a bike when it comes screaming out of now where flashing down an unexpected side of you. Bikers have to take responsibility too!
In yorkshire we also suffer from not_driving_above_30_and_breaking_whenever_a_car_comes_the_other_way_or_there_is_a_slight_kink_in_the_road_itis. This creates very fustrating situations where you end up in a long snake of slow moving traffic. Maybe its time the police addressed this too.
apache said:
I had the luck to drive a Black Shadow and it was a difficult SOB, the girdraulic forks semed to have a mind of their own but the engine was a cracker, surely the best bike around at the time must have been the Norvin a la Ogri.
To add to the old versus new debate. The bikes I grew up on in the 70s all had pretty good power as engine development surged ahead, frame technology lagged behind though and the result was usually something pretty rapid with piss poor handling. The Z1 springs to mind and as such you were pretty well informed as you neared the limit by some alarming handling and, unless you were suicidal, backed off with a nice tank slapper for your temerity. New machines have racetrack honed handling and you can reach balistic speeds with nary a tremor, so much so that you can be on the limit without really knowing it and when it does go pear shaped...........IMO of course
To add to the old versus new debate. The bikes I grew up on in the 70s all had pretty good power as engine development surged ahead, frame technology lagged behind though and the result was usually something pretty rapid with piss poor handling. The Z1 springs to mind and as such you were pretty well informed as you neared the limit by some alarming handling and, unless you were suicidal, backed off with a nice tank slapper for your temerity. New machines have racetrack honed handling and you can reach balistic speeds with nary a tremor, so much so that you can be on the limit without really knowing it and when it does go pear shaped...........IMO of course
The frame technology was the problem with the early Jap bikes, no doubt about it.
I put the Z900 into my workshop, stripped it to the bare frame, mig welded fillets into the areas where the greatest likelyhood of flexing was, fitted a box section swinging arm, a full set of Koni light alloy competition shocks, a Rickmann fairing and the most expensive tyres I could find at the time.
It was magnificent; and it didn't make a blind bit of difference!!
You must have overlooked the hinge in the middle. I had a Z750 in more recent times, it tried to kill me once with a major tank slapper as I accelerated past a Rentokill van, it was honking down with rain and I had caught the white line, I was so hacked off I started punching shit out of the tank. Christ knows what the driver of the van must have thought as this soaking wet apparition hurtled past snaking like crazy battering the hell out of his bike, didn't fall off though
apache said:
You must have overlooked the hinge in the middle. I had a Z750 in more recent times, it tried to kill me once with a major tank slapper as I accelerated past a Rentokill van, it was honking down with rain and I had caught the white line, I was so hacked off I started punching shit out of the tank. Christ knows what the driver of the van must have thought as this soaking wet apparition hurtled past snaking like crazy battering the hell out of his bike, didn't fall off though
Happy days indeed!!!
jith said:
There is one thing that concerns me about the article though, and that's the reference to motorcycle deaths.
The implication would appear to be that most of the deaths are due to the fault of the cyclists themselves: the reality in my experience is completely the reverse.
The implication would appear to be that most of the deaths are due to the fault of the cyclists themselves: the reality in my experience is completely the reverse.
Perhaps a quick look at a map of the B1257 "Helmsley TT" and you'll see why so many bikers have died on that stretch...it's lovely, but some tend to go a bit mad, and I don't care what the car drivers do, if they have a collision with a biker doing 100+mph then the biker was seriously at fault (although the car driver is not necessarily blameless!).
Dwight Vandriver said:
NYCC do believe in the three E's
Education.
Engineering.
Enforcement (final).
They have not gone doolally on speed cameras but are active at problem sites identified with the use of mobile cameras.
dvd
Education.
Engineering.
Enforcement (final).
They have not gone doolally on speed cameras but are active at problem sites identified with the use of mobile cameras.
dvd
Oh, has there been a change then DVD? I thought North Yorkshire didn't use fixed speed cameras at all, but they might occasionally use a mobile one.
Best wishes all,
Dave - just a little anxious.
Andrew D said:
Yeah, North Yorkshire DO use mobile cameras (talivans), but no where near as enthusiastically as the car-haters at West Yorkshire!
But the main prong of their arsenal are unmarked cars, they're like mustard (i.e. hot) on the A65 with (mainly) unmarked Impreza's.
But the main prong of their arsenal are unmarked cars, they're like mustard (i.e. hot) on the A65 with (mainly) unmarked Impreza's.
My cousin ist with Durham. They operate in similar fashion. Some one once complained to him on Paul's site that "Durham BiB are all over the place like a rash"
He was rather chuffed about that
Andrew D said:
Well, this could be one of those interpretation things. Just because the motorist doesn't see the biker it's not necessarily their fault, it could just be the result of something else. Can a biker not make themselves more visible by their choice of road position?
On the A65 (in North Yorkshire, ironically) I often have bikers hanging on my rear wing, behind the C-Pillar, looking for a pass, and you simply can't see them there. If you're in a queue of traffic, you can't see them approaching (hopping down the queue) from behind, so you don't know that they are there. If you're behind another vehicle and go for a pass, and the biker does the same, you're likely to knock him off without ever knowing he (or indeed she) was there! The whole thing could be avoided by the biker pulling into the centre of the lane for a few seconds to make the car in front aware, but they never do.
On the A65 (in North Yorkshire, ironically) I often have bikers hanging on my rear wing, behind the C-Pillar, looking for a pass, and you simply can't see them there. If you're in a queue of traffic, you can't see them approaching (hopping down the queue) from behind, so you don't know that they are there. If you're behind another vehicle and go for a pass, and the biker does the same, you're likely to knock him off without ever knowing he (or indeed she) was there! The whole thing could be avoided by the biker pulling into the centre of the lane for a few seconds to make the car in front aware, but they never do.
I can't accept that. You should always know whats behind you and if that happens to be a bike approaching rapidly you should know before it even gets to your C post blind spot, queue or not.
I do accept that that rules out probably 50% or more of drivers, who don't have a clue what's happening behind them, but you should know they're there if you've been using your mirrors. But bikers know that don't they, when they blast past they know you may not even know they're there and allow for that.
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