Another Police Cock-up
Discussion
Why do I get the feeling that the Police seem to be acting like Judge Dredd? Why did they burst in? It Seesm that police in the capital are acting in such a way that more injuries and fatalities are to be expected. What happened to the old considered approach? It's not like that approach did not work, in fact the old way seemed to work very well and this new approach appears to have no justification.
Toy Gun
Toy Gun
Having handled the real steel and also some of the air soft replicas you can only really tell the difference when you pick them up, from a couple of feet away they do look the same. However, if I attended this the first question I would ask myself is how would a young kid get hold of the latest version of a very expensive gun. Its a gun I have never seen used by crims as its so hard to get hold of - H&K are very careful who they sell them too.. thus it would be almost certain to be an airsoft version. I think I would have gone for the knock on the door approach.
bluesandtwos said:
I think I would have gone for the knock on the door approach.
I understand what you are saying but perhaps if the senario was, for arguments sake, that checks showed stuff about the address or possible occupants that meant perhaps you would not be quite so comfortable knocking on that door ???
Edited by john57 on Sunday 25th June 10:00
telecat said:
Why do I get the feeling that the Police seem to be acting like Judge Dredd? Why did they burst in?
Seems like a good way to get another innocent victim shot. Reports are that the occupants heard "shouting" but did not make out that "Armed Police" was being shouted (assuming it was). There were very similar reports from Forest Gate. The police need to consider that Joe Public does not automatically think "police" when someone smashes in their door; they think "criminal", "thug" and that ilk [and please don't start that all over again 
]. Even less do they think "armed police". Several officers shouting at the same time sounds like a bunch of drunked hooligans outside the pub on a Saturday night; not a singular, clearly ennunciated, and easy to understand command. Think on it - StreakySounds like an all-round cock-up to me: the father should not have allowed his son a replica MP5. The Police should have checked up on the family before doing the full assault team thing. Something tells me there are a few people in the Police armed response squad who watch too many movies. One day, someone is going to get killed. Oh wait, that's already happened. 
bluesandtwos said:
Having handled the real steel and also some of the air soft replicas you can only really tell the difference when you pick them up, from a couple of feet away they do look the same. However, if I attended this the first question I would ask myself is how would a young kid get hold of the latest version of a very expensive gun. Its a gun I have never seen used by crims as its so hard to get hold of - H&K are very careful who they sell them too.. thus it would be almost certain to be an airsoft version. I think I would have gone for the knock on the door approach.
Perhaps the intel gathered from the eyewitness was not that accurate, if it was as much as 'looks like some kind of machine gun' then they cant really be blamed for not taking chances.
Furthermore, if they are going to go through with a raid, they need to do it on the assumption that the gun *is* real. I am sure that real gangster/terrorist types would appreciate the 'heads up' to ready themselves by a polite knock at the door. This would have of course ended in fatalities or at least a gunfight. It sounds like in this case that the police completed the raid and search in a complete and thourough way given the information. Alright, handcuffing the adult males in the house is heavyhanded in hindsight after the search and questioning, but given the situation they were not given much choice.
I am sure if the shoe was on the other foot and a real gunman is not handcuffed (just to be kind) and he reaches for his gun and gets blown away, despite the obvious nature of the gunman, he will still have parents who belive he was temporarily misguided and really a good lad and want to sue the police for killing their son as it only happened as they did not follow procedure.
Im with the police with this one. This type of thing has been happening with firearms offences for as long as I can remember, but the story is carefully aimed with a terrorist/sign of the times/false raids theme which I dont think it has much to do with.
Edited by justinp1 on Sunday 25th June 11:14
Zod said:
Sounds like an all-round cock-up to me: the father should not have allowed his son a replica MP5.The Police should have checked up on the family before doing the full assault team thing. Something tells me there are a few people in the Police armed response squad who watch too many movies. One day, someone is going to get killed. Oh wait, that's already happened.
Do you know that they didn't make any checks ?
If it turns out they did do the relevant checks, do you know what they revealed ?
Is it possible that they were done & the information they revealed supported the approach taken (or do you have evidence to the contrary) ?
Well, there was a stakeout of sorts but we don't how long for. A father, wife & 2 sons reside there. Dad's a solicitor. Seems like a fairly normal family unit to me and there will have been masses of information about this family available to the police from various sources. I'd like to think that proper checks were made which could have hinted at these people being terrorists or that way inclined before the door was put in. Could they have been muslims?
The only way the police would be short of information is if the family just arrived from abroad and were paying rent.
Boosted.
The only way the police would be short of information is if the family just arrived from abroad and were paying rent.
Boosted.
Boosted LS1 said:
Well, there was a stakeout of sorts but we don't how long for. A father, wife & 2 sons reside there. Dad's a solicitor. Seems like a fairly normal family unit to me and there will have been masses of information about this family available to the police from various sources. I'd like to think that proper checks were made which could have hinted at these people being terrorists or that way inclined before the door was put in. Could they have been muslims?
The only way the police would be short of information is if the family just arrived from abroad and were paying rent.
Boosted.
The only way the police would be short of information is if the family just arrived from abroad and were paying rent.
Boosted.
You say that like solicitors are to be trusted
vonhosen said:
Boosted LS1 said:
Well, there was a stakeout of sorts but we don't how long for. A father, wife & 2 sons reside there. Dad's a solicitor. Seems like a fairly normal family unit to me and there will have been masses of information about this family available to the police from various sources. I'd like to think that proper checks were made which could have hinted at these people being terrorists or that way inclined before the door was put in. Could they have been muslims?
The only way the police would be short of information is if the family just arrived from abroad and were paying rent.
Boosted.
The only way the police would be short of information is if the family just arrived from abroad and were paying rent.
Boosted.
You say that like solicitors are to be trusted
My point is that if he was genuine there would be loads of information available to them, the bib. I didn't see him kicking in a front door with an armed swat team behind him.
Boosted.
This is obvisously not the first time I would question the Tactics used by this element of the Police. I have seen video of a Firearms unit "tackiling" two young men with an Airsoft gun. Why Do I question it?? Well I don't think running at two people in a crowded open Shopping Precinct with Semi-Automatic weapons is a safe thing to do. Closing them off would make the operation safer. There is also a sinister undercurrent here. The Police in many cases seem to be "aware" they are dealing with "Legal" weapons but are determined to make a point about them. This approach conflicts sharpley with that in the 80's where many of these operations were very low-keya nd successful. So who are you more afraid of? Muslim Terrorist's or your local Firearms unit?
telecat said:
This is obvisously not the first time I would question the Tactics used by this element of the Police. I have seen video of a Firearms unit "tackiling" two young men with an Airsoft gun. Why Do I question it?? Well I don't think running at two people in a crowded open Shopping Precinct with Semi-Automatic weapons is a safe thing to do. Closing them off would make the operation safer. There is also a sinister undercurrent here. The Police in many cases seem to be "aware" they are dealing with "Legal" weapons but are determined to make a point about them. This approach conflicts sharpley with that in the 80's where many of these operations were very low-keya nd successful. So who are you more afraid of? Muslim Terrorist's or your local Firearms unit?
We will hear a lot more of this, Because media, police and GCN etc. Want to get replica's banned, and as always it will be the honest man, women that collects, uses them in legit softair games etc, that will suffer. And the crims will carry on using the real stuff, that they proberly can buy cheaper of a person in the pub or where ever they buy them. And so the nannying state continues
. Atb DerekAs always, we don't have all the facts, but this does sound like another case of a failure to apply common sense. All the police I know personaly lament the fact that day-to-day common-sense policing is not encouraged by the policing-by-numbers, procedure driven, risk-averse, arse-covering approach. When you hear about instances like this one, it all rings true.
At least the "victim" of this incident is going to be in a position to demand that it is properly examined and will be able to kick up merry hell if it is not. It shouldn't make any difference, but back on planet earth, being a succesful, wealthy, educated solicitor is a pretty good basis for demanding a proper enquiry.
At least the "victim" of this incident is going to be in a position to demand that it is properly examined and will be able to kick up merry hell if it is not. It shouldn't make any difference, but back on planet earth, being a succesful, wealthy, educated solicitor is a pretty good basis for demanding a proper enquiry.
john57 said:
bluesandtwos said:
I think I would have gone for the knock on the door approach.
I understand what you are saying but perhaps if the senario was, for arguments sake, that checks showed stuff about the address or possible occupants that meant perhaps you would not be quite so comfortable knocking on that door ???
Edited by john57 on Sunday 25th June 10:00
Our SOP is for plain car drive by and PNC / Voters etc, then CID or TFU obs and CID / TFU into next door and gather intel. Then its down to the ACC...
vonhosen said:
Zod said:
Sounds like an all-round cock-up to me: the father should not have allowed his son a replica MP5.The Police should have checked up on the family before doing the full assault team thing. Something tells me there are a few people in the Police armed response squad who watch too many movies. One day, someone is going to get killed. Oh wait, that's already happened.
Do you know that they didn't make any checks ?
If it turns out they did do the relevant checks, do you know what they revealed ?
Is it possible that they were done & the information they revealed supported the approach taken (or do you have evidence to the contrary) ?
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