His word against mine
Discussion
Madcop, BobTheBench your valuable input would be greatly appreciated. A bit long but hopefully worth it!
I am due in court in the next few weeks for allegedly exceeding the speed limit of 30mph. I am accused of 67mph in a 30mph limit.
I was pulled over to the side of the road by the only
there on the day - that was in July 2001.
I know what you will probably say BUT I was travelling at nowhere near that speed and felt that I had to contest the claim via a lawyer.
I consulted with a lawyer whom has continued to seek clarification of calibration and all the other points of note that are apparently required.
It has taken until today to receive all the documentation from the CPS/Police.
Now, that's the background, but the reality of the situation is that no matter how I contest this I am looking at a discretionary ban or upto 6 points AND a fine upto £600 - I think.
My lawyer has taken the stance that the accuracy of measurement and how the device was used had to be brought into question
- so the CPS now has the top "Expert Witness" for the laser device standing in the wings ready to appear at the trial. I have evidence to prove that this "Expert Witness" has made some untrue claims in court before in order to help get a conviction. I am also in contention over his apparent "Expert Witness" status considering he is the MD of the company whom resell the devices in the UK he obviously has a financial interest. Which brings me onto Article 6 of the Human Rights Act concerning fair trials!
To cut a long story short I really need to know what to do for the best:
Should I continue to contest this or should I throw in the towel? It's been a long time since the alleged offence and I am running out of patience. Morally if I really was driving at that speed in a 30mph I would have know about it and would put my hands up - take the punishment and get on with life. In fact I was so concerned that I immediately sold my vehicle and undertook the IAM course and test and passed.
The CPS has already reduced the speed to 60mph which is confusing -why would they do that?
What are my chances of success? The only officer at the scene has already proven his worth by telling me he would check calibration of the device later yet in his statement said that he calibrated it at the time I was still standing talking to him via means of another police vehicle.
The police have no photographs, no data recorded and nothing more than his word against mine? What are my chances?
>>> Edited by lucozade on Friday 7th February 10:11
>>> Edited by lucozade on Friday 7th February 10:12
I am due in court in the next few weeks for allegedly exceeding the speed limit of 30mph. I am accused of 67mph in a 30mph limit.
I was pulled over to the side of the road by the only
there on the day - that was in July 2001. I know what you will probably say BUT I was travelling at nowhere near that speed and felt that I had to contest the claim via a lawyer.
I consulted with a lawyer whom has continued to seek clarification of calibration and all the other points of note that are apparently required.
It has taken until today to receive all the documentation from the CPS/Police.
Now, that's the background, but the reality of the situation is that no matter how I contest this I am looking at a discretionary ban or upto 6 points AND a fine upto £600 - I think.
My lawyer has taken the stance that the accuracy of measurement and how the device was used had to be brought into question
- so the CPS now has the top "Expert Witness" for the laser device standing in the wings ready to appear at the trial. I have evidence to prove that this "Expert Witness" has made some untrue claims in court before in order to help get a conviction. I am also in contention over his apparent "Expert Witness" status considering he is the MD of the company whom resell the devices in the UK he obviously has a financial interest. Which brings me onto Article 6 of the Human Rights Act concerning fair trials! To cut a long story short I really need to know what to do for the best:
Should I continue to contest this or should I throw in the towel? It's been a long time since the alleged offence and I am running out of patience. Morally if I really was driving at that speed in a 30mph I would have know about it and would put my hands up - take the punishment and get on with life. In fact I was so concerned that I immediately sold my vehicle and undertook the IAM course and test and passed.
The CPS has already reduced the speed to 60mph which is confusing -why would they do that?
What are my chances of success? The only officer at the scene has already proven his worth by telling me he would check calibration of the device later yet in his statement said that he calibrated it at the time I was still standing talking to him via means of another police vehicle.
The police have no photographs, no data recorded and nothing more than his word against mine? What are my chances?
>>> Edited by lucozade on Friday 7th February 10:11
>>> Edited by lucozade on Friday 7th February 10:12
Madcop, BobTheBench your valuable input would be greatly appreciated. A bit long but hopefully worth it!
I am due in court in the next few weeks for allegedly exceeding the speed limit of 30mph. I am accused of 67mph in a 30mph limit.
I was pulled over to the side of the road by the only
I know what you will probably say BUT I was travelling at nowhere near that speed and felt that I had to contest the claim via a lawyer.
I consulted with a lawyer whom has continued to seek clarification of calibration and all the other points of note that are apparently required.
It has taken until today to receive all the documentation from the CPS/Police.
Now, that's the background, but the reality of the situation is that no matter how I contest this I am looking at a discretionary ban or upto 6 points AND a fine upto £600 - I think.
My lawyer has taken the stance that the accuracy of measurement and how the device was used had to be brought into question
To cut a long story short I really need to know what to do for the best:
Should I continue to contest this or should I throw in the towel? It's been a long time since the alleged offence and I am running out of patience. Morally if I really was driving at that speed in a 30mph I would have know about it and would put my hands up - take the punishment and get on with life. In fact I was so concerned that I immediately sold my vehicle and undertook the IAM course and test and passed.
The CPS has already reduced the speed to 60mph which is confusing -why would they do that?
What are my chances of success? The only officer at the scene has already proven his worth by telling me he would check calibration of the device later yet in his statement said that he calibrated it at the time I was still standing talking to him via means of another police vehicle.
The police have no photographs, no data recorded and nothing more than his word against mine? What are my chances?
>>> Edited by lucozade on Friday 7th February 10:11
>>> Edited by lucozade on Friday 7th February 10:12
There get you m8.
howecer If it was me and I knew they was lieing I would take it all the way.
including refusing to pay an fine.
But thats just me I wont roll over for no one.
Morally if I really was driving at that speed in a 30mph I would have know about it and would put my hands up - take the punishment and get on with life. In fact I was so concerned that I immediately sold my vehicle and undertook the IAM course and test and passed.
Ha, you should see some of the speed limits round 'ere.
I've seen 90 on the clock in a 30. Perfectly safe as well (at 2am
) I wounldn't worry about morality of it. Looks like you've got bigger problems than simple morality issues.
Andy
andytk said:
Morally if I really was driving at that speed in a 30mph I would have know about it and would put my hands up - take the punishment and get on with life. In fact I was so concerned that I immediately sold my vehicle and undertook the IAM course and test and passed.
Ha, you should see some of the speed limits round 'ere.
I've seen 90 on the clock in a 30. Perfectly safe as well (at 2am
I wounldn't worry about morality of it. Looks like you've got bigger problems than simple morality issues.
Andy
Not sure 90mph in a 30mph should every be considered safe at any time. You will not have enough time to react to unknown hazards.
Anyone else got any valuable input to this thread then?
I would say go by the advice of your Solicitor. He is the best person to tell you what the best options are. The evidence of expert witnesses brought by CPS is very difficult (although not impossible) to rebut or challenge. The fact he has a financial interest in the matter is irrelevant to the court as long as he is an expert
Some people who are summonsed on R.T.A. related offences call their own expert witness to challenge the evidence of Police accident investigators or Forensic Scientists. These defence experts are allowed to question evidence given by experts for the prosecution and they will also have a financial interest in being in court to defend an allegation.
If you intend to go all the way though, and the prosecution have an expert witness, you should try to find one of your own. That will be very expensive as any one who has expert knowledge can charge virtually what they like if it is worth while.
I am afraid that like lots of cases that go through both criminal and civil courts, the amount of money available to defend allegations means the difference between justice and no justice. Unfortunately the State has a huge amount of financial resource behind it. Many of its subjects do not and therefore cannot hope to have fair representation (unles you happen to be a scrote or other lowlife where the legal aid scheme steps in to protect your every whim).
If it was me in your position, I would more than likely put my hands up and try a plea bargain with the prosecutor. Tell him you admit the speed but not the actual speed. They will then have a special trial (trial within a trial) There is a special name for it which escapes me at the moment '....... hearing'.
Your lawyer will know all about it. If you can get the speed down considerably, that would be your best bet unless you dispute exceeding the limit at all. In that case you have to plead not guilty all the way.
Some people who are summonsed on R.T.A. related offences call their own expert witness to challenge the evidence of Police accident investigators or Forensic Scientists. These defence experts are allowed to question evidence given by experts for the prosecution and they will also have a financial interest in being in court to defend an allegation.
If you intend to go all the way though, and the prosecution have an expert witness, you should try to find one of your own. That will be very expensive as any one who has expert knowledge can charge virtually what they like if it is worth while.
I am afraid that like lots of cases that go through both criminal and civil courts, the amount of money available to defend allegations means the difference between justice and no justice. Unfortunately the State has a huge amount of financial resource behind it. Many of its subjects do not and therefore cannot hope to have fair representation (unles you happen to be a scrote or other lowlife where the legal aid scheme steps in to protect your every whim).
If it was me in your position, I would more than likely put my hands up and try a plea bargain with the prosecutor. Tell him you admit the speed but not the actual speed. They will then have a special trial (trial within a trial) There is a special name for it which escapes me at the moment '....... hearing'.
Your lawyer will know all about it. If you can get the speed down considerably, that would be your best bet unless you dispute exceeding the limit at all. In that case you have to plead not guilty all the way.
Lucozade,
Ultimately it is your decision (not easy I appreciate) but I feel you should press on. As for the "expert witness" are you aware that, in a previous case, his "expertly" written statement on the use of LTi20/20 was severely undermined (along with his credibility) when the Defence got hold of a copy of the LTi Operation Manual? That was something he hadn't bargained on!
With that in mind, have the CPS provided you with a copy of the LTi 20/20 Operation Manual as part of their disclosure of evidence obligations under Section 23 of the 1991 Road Traffic Act and the 1996 Criminal Procedure and Investigation Act? If they haven't and refuse to do so you could ask for the case to be dismissed on the grounds that the Prosecution are denying you access to relevant evidence and preventing you from adequately preparing your defence.
You mentioned previously that you had arguments with the Police/CPS with respect to Tetra/GSM radio interference. They denied that a problem existed but the new ACPO Code of Practice proves them wrong. Do you have any of their incorrect comments regarding this in writing? Does any of the evidence disclosed to you so far prove that no offending apparatus was operational in close proximity to the Lti20/20 at the time of your alleged offence?
As for the police officers' word against yours, have you read this:
www.pepipoo.com/Case_Files/Case_file_12.htm
Good luck,
DD
Ultimately it is your decision (not easy I appreciate) but I feel you should press on. As for the "expert witness" are you aware that, in a previous case, his "expertly" written statement on the use of LTi20/20 was severely undermined (along with his credibility) when the Defence got hold of a copy of the LTi Operation Manual? That was something he hadn't bargained on!
With that in mind, have the CPS provided you with a copy of the LTi 20/20 Operation Manual as part of their disclosure of evidence obligations under Section 23 of the 1991 Road Traffic Act and the 1996 Criminal Procedure and Investigation Act? If they haven't and refuse to do so you could ask for the case to be dismissed on the grounds that the Prosecution are denying you access to relevant evidence and preventing you from adequately preparing your defence.
You mentioned previously that you had arguments with the Police/CPS with respect to Tetra/GSM radio interference. They denied that a problem existed but the new ACPO Code of Practice proves them wrong. Do you have any of their incorrect comments regarding this in writing? Does any of the evidence disclosed to you so far prove that no offending apparatus was operational in close proximity to the Lti20/20 at the time of your alleged offence?
As for the police officers' word against yours, have you read this:
www.pepipoo.com/Case_Files/Case_file_12.htm
Good luck,
DD
hang on.
So they changed the charge? doesn't that mean they have something to hide?
I'm so sorry I can't give any useful advice, but commiserate utterly. It seems so unfair that this stuff occurs, and so hard for the honest worker to avoid.
Sounds a bit like the classic - fight it, risk paying more, give in, take what's coming.
Personally I'd fight. Tough call, and I know it is hard, 'cos it took me 18 months to get a case dropped. The stress was probably more painful than the penalty, but f**k 'em.
Best wishes mate.
C
So they changed the charge? doesn't that mean they have something to hide?
I'm so sorry I can't give any useful advice, but commiserate utterly. It seems so unfair that this stuff occurs, and so hard for the honest worker to avoid.
Sounds a bit like the classic - fight it, risk paying more, give in, take what's coming.
Personally I'd fight. Tough call, and I know it is hard, 'cos it took me 18 months to get a case dropped. The stress was probably more painful than the penalty, but f**k 'em.
Best wishes mate.
C
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