Beer + "camping" in your car

[marco]

Just wondered if anyone knew the law on this?

I'm off to a blues festival and as its only me going for one evening to meet up with some old friends I did wonder about ditching the tent and just kipping in the car (years as a musician trained me to be able to sleep anywhere!)

But then I remembered urban myths about mates of mates getting arrested after police found them sleeping it off on pub carparks with their keys hidden in the exhaust pipe and so on. I've never operated a car drunk and have no intention of it but if I'm on a camp site and I have a few liveners could I still be "Drunk in Charge"??


Thanks


Marco

[pdV6]

marco said:

if I'm on a camp site and I have a few liveners could I still be "Drunk in Charge"??

Initial reaction is to say "yes". On private land you might be ok, but a campsite might get treated as a publically accessible space in the same way as a carpark.

[Raify]

This happened to a friend of mine. He went to a party, had nowhere to sleep and kipped in the car.

Unfortunately for him, it was the depths of winter and he fell asleep with the engine running (for the heater) and woke to a BiB knocking on the window.

The arresting officers said that they would "have to go through the motions" of a drunk driving charge, but believed his story of sleeping and not intending to drive anywhere.

When it got to court the judge threw the book at him, he had to drive like Miss Daisy for 3 years with 9 points.

With the keys in a 'safe place' and on private land, you might have more chance...

[Stubby Pete]

Again possibly an Urdan Myth but I seem to recall that you have to be in charge" of the car and if its clamped you are not. (Think this was in a car park and clamped by others) Not sure if you clamp your own car this would still apply, even if did before!

[Davi]

marco said:

urban myths about mates of mates getting arrested after police found them sleeping it off on pub carparks with their keys hidden in the exhaust pipe and so on.

No urban myths to this one, when I was 18 a very good friend of mine lost his licence for 18 months (I think, might have been more) after doing exactly that, was most definitely over the limit, couldn't get a taxi from the local (where I worked at the time) so put the passenger seat in full recline to await the morning and sobriety.

Edited by Davi on Monday 10th July 15:09

[marco]

Mmme thanks for the replies guys!
Looks like I'll be borrowing a tent instead.



Marco

[spaximus]

it is a bit of a grey area this one. If you are in a lorry with sleeping compartment, is that considered the same as a car? and is a motorhome which is designed for sleeping in the same. I guess it would all come down to the policeman using descresion on the day one would hope but it is a bit of a minefield I would say for the law when one is not designed for sleeping in and the others are.

[w1how]

Always thought you were ok if the keys were not in the car.Many years ago we used to drive out to different nightclubs and take a big car(usually a sierra estate)to kip in.Used to hide the keys under a stone nearby and kip in the car in a public car park,usually in the back of the car.I always understood I wasnt breaking the law by doing this but it now seems I would have been in serious trouble had I been caught.

[pdV6]

I think the issue is that if you could easily get to the keys (i.e. because you know which stone you hid them under) then you could get done. How the Bib would know where the keys were if you were sober enough to remember not to tell them is another issue...

[vonhosen]

The law (as written) requires very little. Just really that when in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle, which was on a road or other public place, you were unfit to drive through drink or drugs.

You can be in charge of the vehicle whilst the keys aren't even in your physical possession (ie a friend with you is holding them), but you have ready access to them.

There is a statutory defence under Sec 4(3) Road Traffic Act 1988
A person shall be deemed not to have been in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle if he proves that at the material time the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving it so long as he remained unfit to drive through drink or drugs.

As a result of this, although you could be arrested for drunk in charge, you would only be likely to be charged & prosecuted where the prosecution can negate that defence & show that it was likely you would drive. (Obviously the closer your proximity to the vehicle, conversations, engine running etc will go towards this).

Edited by vonhosen on Monday 10th July 16:51

[ATG]

Fear of prosecution in these csaes does seem a little overblown. Surely if you can show you clearly planned in advance to sleep off the booze in the vehicle there can't be a problem? If this were not the case, the outlook for mobile home owners would be pretty bleak.

[vonhosen]

ATG said:

Fear of prosecution in these csaes does seem a little overblown. Surely if you can show you clearly planned in advance to sleep off the booze in the vehicle there can't be a problem? If this were not the case, the outlook for mobile home owners would be pretty bleak.

Really it's best used as a preventative measure. If the Police think you might drive & you have the ability to (ie you are in cahrge of it) they could arrest you for drunk in charge, you are in a cell until sober, you are interviewed, there is unlikley to be sufficient evidence to negate your statutory defence, you aren't charged, but hey you didn't drive whilst drunk when you might of & you are released NFA. Nobody got hurt & nobody did anything silly when they weren't in the best position to always make reasonable decisions because they were drunk.

If you want to avoid all that though, stay well away from vehicles when drunk where the Police may even suspect that you might drive & are in a position to do so should you make that silly decision.

Edited by vonhosen on Monday 10th July 17:03

[cooperman]

There appears to be no specific ruling as to what is and is not OK. How bizarre!

[vonhosen]

cooperman said:

There appears to be no specific ruling as to what is and is not OK. How bizarre!

There's plenty of rulings on it, but what it boils down to is if the Police suspect an offence they can arrest, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will result in a charge. The evidence required to arrest is less than the evidence required to charge. Don't put yourself in a position where a Police officer would have any reason to suspect that you are in charge of a vehicle, unfit to drive & likely to drive.

It will save potential heartache & aggravation.

Edited by vonhosen on Monday 10th July 17:16

[safespeed]

vonhosen said:

... it boils down to is if the Police suspect an offence they can arrest, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will result in a charge.

I think the law is quite bonkers about this. It is over-enforced against people who do not appear likely to drive at all.

I don't even dare have a bottle of wine with dinner in my campervan - despite the fact that I'm not planning to drive for 24 hours - in case some overzealous PC comes along and makes my life hell. How barking is that?

[bryan35]

There's reasonable and there's reasonable isn't there.

Heard of a chap who was arrested (not sure if charged) for drunk in charge while getting his coat out of the boot of his car which was in a pub car park while he waited for a taxi. A bit over zealous I think!

I also thought that you can be drunk in charge without actually having the keys. you can still let the hand brake off etc.

A story I did hear that may indeed be an urban myth, is someone doing similar to the pub car one above, but on their own driveway. These days however you can generally unlock the car from the house, then go to it without actually having the keys.
You'd have to be a pretty pedantic copper, and be really unlucky in court to not get of with this i'd have thought!

Surely common sense would prevail. - you'd hope.

[vonhosen]

safespeed said:

vonhosen said:

... it boils down to is if the Police suspect an offence they can arrest, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will result in a charge.

I think the law is quite bonkers about this. It is over-enforced against people who do not appear likely to drive at all.

I don't even dare have a bottle of wine with dinner in my campervan - despite the fact that I'm not planning to drive for 24 hours - in case some overzealous PC comes along and makes my life hell. How barking is that?

In my experience it doesn't get used that much at all. Certainly if you behave reasonably.

[w1how]

surely you can do as you wish on private property-including sit in your car p***ed and rev the @rse off it if you so wish as long as you dont go on the public highway???

[vonhosen]

w1how said:

surely you can do as you wish on private property-including sit in your car p***ed and rev the @rse off it if you so wish as long as you dont go on the public highway???

The offence only applies to roads & public places, so whilst "road" has a very broad menaing under the Road traffic act it doesn't apply to your private land to which the public don't have access.

[lazy_b]

vonhosen said:

There is a statutory defence under Sec 4(3) Road Traffic Act 1988
A person shall be deemed not to have been in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle if he proves that at the material time the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving it so long as he remained unfit to drive through drink or drugs.

A hypothetical question (I'm not planning to try this out, I just like hypothetical questions )

Suppose, after a session at the pub, I decide to sleep it off in the (public) car park. I get into the car. make myself comfortable (FSVO comfortable), then put the car keys in a box with a really fiddly combination lock - one which is difficult enough to open when sober, let alone drunk. Would this constitute a statutory defence?