Discussion
shuvitupya said:
I would say poor visibility is when you can't see the car in front or behind clearly, or when you are struggling to see the road ahead.
Of course, that might just be poor vision. Seriously, though, the HC advises that:
201: You MUST use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced, generally when you cannot see for more than 100 metres (328 feet). You may also use front or rear fog lights but you MUST switch them off when visibility improves (see Rule 211).
Law RVLR regs 25 & 27
210: When driving in fog you should
* use your lights as required in Rule 201
[ ... ]
211: [not] You MUST NOT use front or rear fog lights unless visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 201) as they dazzle other road users and can obscure your brake lights. You MUST switch them off when visibility improves.
Law RVLR regs 25 & 27
RVLR 27 states:
2 Front fog lamp
(a) [not] Used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to other persons using the road.
(b) [not] Used so as to be lit at any time other than in conditions of seriously reduced visibility.
(c) [not] Used so as to be lit when a vehicle is parked.
3 Rear fog lamp
(a) [not] Used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to the driver of a following vehicle.
(b) [not] Used so as to be lit at any time other than in conditions of seriously reduced visibility.
(c) [not] Save in the case of an emergency vehicle, used so as to be lit when a vehicle is parked.
So the operative words are: "seriously reduced visibility". The law provides no definition for this. As ever, it is for the courts to decide.
My criteria include:
* will my front fog lights improve my potential to see the road ahead sufficiently (and my speed is a major factor in this);
* will my rear fog lights improve the potential for a driver coming up behind me to see me in sufficient time (the general speed of traffic and the nature of the road are major factors);
* will my rear fog lights dazzle an immediately following driver (the speed of the traffic stream and the closeness of the following cars are factors - if the traffic is crawling along the A4 out of London at rush hour, fog lights are likely not useful to you or anyone).
If I were a BMW driver, an additional criterion would be:
* who the f
k cares? If I were a chav, the sole criterion would be:
* do I think it looks cool?
Streaky
Edited to correct typing errors, and to insert "[not]" to clarify meaning of extracts from Rule 27.
Edited by streaky on Sunday 17th September 22:37
I'm with ^^^^^ Streaky.
An additional criteria might be,
If I were the aged parent driving a vehicle last driven by offspring:-
There's this light on the dashboard, means something, not sure what it is, not sure which button to press, oh dear, people are flashing at me, I can't be going too fast I only ever drive at 40 mph everywhere.
An additional criteria might be,
If I were the aged parent driving a vehicle last driven by offspring:-
There's this light on the dashboard, means something, not sure what it is, not sure which button to press, oh dear, people are flashing at me, I can't be going too fast I only ever drive at 40 mph everywhere.
A related hijack:-
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
2) My old Civic's front-fogs provided a far-better 'wide-angle' illumination than the dipped beam, so I often used them on back-roads at night when I wanted to be sure what was/wasn't at the edge of the road. I assume that also would be an illegal use of the front foglights (despite there being a genuine reason).
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
2) My old Civic's front-fogs provided a far-better 'wide-angle' illumination than the dipped beam, so I often used them on back-roads at night when I wanted to be sure what was/wasn't at the edge of the road. I assume that also would be an illegal use of the front foglights (despite there being a genuine reason).
havoc said:
A related hijack:-
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
They are not fog lights.
Fog lights are a fog light, not any other light.
havoc said:
2) My old Civic's front-fogs provided a far-better 'wide-angle' illumination than the dipped beam, so I often used them on back-roads at night when I wanted to be sure what was/wasn't at the edge of the road. I assume that also would be an illegal use of the front foglights (despite there being a genuine reason).
It would
vonhosen said:
havoc said:
A related hijack:-
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
They are not fog lights.
Fog lights are a fog light, not any other light.
Eg Pug 205GTI, mounted below front bumper but wired so only illuminated in conjunction with main beam, automatically extinguished by dip switch. In conjunction with the E markings on the lamp unit itself clearly classed as an optional main beam lamp.
Same manufacturer 309GTI.
Four lamps below bumper.
Two marked and wired as above, therefore optional main beam lights.
Two with E markings for fog lights, wired so as to able to be operated separately, ie just with position lights or in conjunction with all other lights, not wired in connection with dip switch. Therefore front fog lights. Use of these lights at any other time other than seriously reduced visibility or to cause dazzle or discomfort to other road users is not legal.
Back to question re what counts as seriously reduced visibility. My own interpretation of this, and tbh I don't know of an official interpretation, is when the outline of an unlit vehicle cannot be seen at a distance of 100m. At that point it's more than a light mist imho.
FiF
!vonhosen said:
havoc said:
A related hijack:-
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
They are not fog lights.
Fog lights are a fog light, not any other light.
I thought it was no light below 2 foot above the ground could be used unless foggy. I've assumed all lights below 2 foot would be fog lamps or in anycase illegal except in fog.
havoc said:
A related hijack:-
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
2) My old Civic's front-fogs provided a far-better 'wide-angle' illumination than the dipped beam, so I often used them on back-roads at night when I wanted to be sure what was/wasn't at the edge of the road. I assume that also would be an illegal use of the front foglights (despite there being a genuine reason).
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
2) My old Civic's front-fogs provided a far-better 'wide-angle' illumination than the dipped beam, so I often used them on back-roads at night when I wanted to be sure what was/wasn't at the edge of the road. I assume that also would be an illegal use of the front foglights (despite there being a genuine reason).
My own view is that you can use whatever you like as long as there is no one is coming the other way and you are following no one. Otherwise only dipped and/or side lights.
herewego said:
vonhosen said:
havoc said:
A related hijack:-
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
They are not fog lights.
Fog lights are a fog light, not any other light.
I thought it was no light below 2 foot above the ground could be used unless foggy. I've assumed all lights below 2 foot would be fog lamps or in anycase illegal except in fog.
There is more to it than that. For it to be a fog light it has to comply with schedule 6 of The Road Vehicles (lighting) Regs
herewego said:
vonhosen said:
havoc said:
A related hijack:-
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
They are not fog lights.
Fog lights are a fog light, not any other light.
I thought it was no light below 2 foot above the ground could be used unless foggy. I've assumed all lights below 2 foot would be fog lamps or in anycase illegal except in fog.
That is a common misconception re height etc.
It all gets complicated with EU type approvals, and to go into real detail you end up bouncing bacckwards and forwards between light regs, C&U regs, EU legislation bla di bla.
In summary though just using the lighting regs.
Vertical positional requirements for the lamps are given below.
Dipped: 500mm min <= height above road <=1200mm
Front Fog: no minimum <= height above road <=1200mm
Main beam incl optional mainbeam : No requirement
There are exemptions in respect of:-
Dipped beam height:-
maximum height restriction for vehicles first used before 1st Janary 1952, an agricultural vehicle, a road clearance vehicle, an aerodrome fire tender, an aerodrome runway sweeper, an industrial tractor, engineering plant and a home forces' vehicle:
minimum height restriction for vehicles first used before 1st January 1956
Front fog maximum height:- agricultural vehicle, a road clearance vehicle, an aerodrome fire tender, an aerodrome runway sweeper, an industrial tractor, engineering plant and a home forces' vehicle
RVLR Part IV Schedules 4, 5 & 6 refer.
FiF
vonhosen said:
herewego said:
vonhosen said:
havoc said:
A related hijack:-
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
1) Some cars have what are called 'driving lights' mounted low-down (a-la foglights). I assume these would be treated as front-fogs for the purposes of law?
They are not fog lights.
Fog lights are a fog light, not any other light.
I thought it was no light below 2 foot above the ground could be used unless foggy. I've assumed all lights below 2 foot would be fog lamps or in anycase illegal except in fog.
There is more to it than that. For it to be a fog light it has to comply with schedule 6 of The Road Vehicles (lighting) Regs
Does that mean that people are allowed to use spotlights, driving lights or lamps that don't qualify as fog lights even if they less than 500mm? above the road? Don't they have to be extinguished with the main beam?
vonhosen said:
That's all a bit surreal. We don't have to have fog lights but if we have some lights that meet the fog light designation then we mustn't use them in good visibility. Any light that doesn't meet the foglight designation can used anytime if they don't dazzle.
herewego said:
vonhosen said:
That's all a bit surreal. We don't have to have fog lights but if we have some lights that meet the fog light designation then we mustn't use them in good visibility. Any light that doesn't meet the foglight designation can used anytime if they don't dazzle.
And they meet their own designation of course.
(You do have to have rear fog lamp though.)
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 16th September 20:21
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