NEW QUESTION FOR MADCOP?
Discussion
mAD COP Would would your thorts be on this
some one filling up with £10 of petrol.
They go in to pay at till. then find there have lost there wallet and credit cards and cash
they then tell the attedant and say
I think i lost my wallet.
give me a pen and a bit of paper
and ill give you my details any you cand send me a bill or ill drop it later.
The attendent trows a fit geting abussive and say he will call police if the person dont leav his car there and walk 10 home and 10miles back and pay at 4 or 5 in the morning
the person with the lost wallet say fine I will wait. and talk to police
when police come the person walks to the police car on the forcort from inside where the tills are.
Then nicely and carmly explains to the officers whats has hapend and the attendent wont give theme pen so I cant give him there name and address.
They explain that they run out of electric cards at 3 in the morning and they only place they could get at that time is a grarage over 10miles from there town in another town .
The got to filling station put 10 pound of petrol in when in to pay and buy electric cards walked to till to pay
They went in there poket and found there wallet is missing
and thort the may have droped at home when crawling around in the dark. trying to find candels
and they asking the atendent for paper and pen to give there name and address. But they would not give them a pen or a peice of paper
They then check you car on pnc
and its ok legal and registered to them.
and the person answer all question there ask
They all so explaing there they are very conserned for ther wife as she is sitting in dark with two candels and is metaly ill with sever depprestion on alot of medication.
and would panick if there were not back on time.
Id could easy be checked of the person form police records very easyly
If it was you attending on duty
1) what would you do?
2) Wht would the persons with the missing wallet legal position be?
3) what should the officers attending not do ?
4)what do you think happend ?
>>> Edited by outlaw on Thursday 6th March 22:35
some one filling up with £10 of petrol.
They go in to pay at till. then find there have lost there wallet and credit cards and cash
they then tell the attedant and say
I think i lost my wallet.
give me a pen and a bit of paper
and ill give you my details any you cand send me a bill or ill drop it later.
The attendent trows a fit geting abussive and say he will call police if the person dont leav his car there and walk 10 home and 10miles back and pay at 4 or 5 in the morning
the person with the lost wallet say fine I will wait. and talk to police
when police come the person walks to the police car on the forcort from inside where the tills are.
Then nicely and carmly explains to the officers whats has hapend and the attendent wont give theme pen so I cant give him there name and address.
They explain that they run out of electric cards at 3 in the morning and they only place they could get at that time is a grarage over 10miles from there town in another town .
The got to filling station put 10 pound of petrol in when in to pay and buy electric cards walked to till to pay
They went in there poket and found there wallet is missing
and thort the may have droped at home when crawling around in the dark. trying to find candels
and they asking the atendent for paper and pen to give there name and address. But they would not give them a pen or a peice of paper
They then check you car on pnc
and its ok legal and registered to them.
and the person answer all question there ask
They all so explaing there they are very conserned for ther wife as she is sitting in dark with two candels and is metaly ill with sever depprestion on alot of medication.
and would panick if there were not back on time.
Id could easy be checked of the person form police records very easyly
If it was you attending on duty
1) what would you do?
2) Wht would the persons with the missing wallet legal position be?
3) what should the officers attending not do ?
4)what do you think happend ?
>>> Edited by outlaw on Thursday 6th March 22:35
Sounds like this unfortunately happened to you, outlaw? Must have been a right bugger. I have to say I'd hope that a mutual agreement might be made between the petrol station and the person without the wallet.
Personally I'd offer them my watch or something as security and promise to be back in an hour.
They do advertise on the pumps to check you have the means to pay before filling....
Anyway...I do sympathise...I wonder what the legal position is...probably not sympathetic I'm afraid....
Personally I'd offer them my watch or something as security and promise to be back in an hour.
They do advertise on the pumps to check you have the means to pay before filling....
Anyway...I do sympathise...I wonder what the legal position is...probably not sympathetic I'm afraid....
I would expect that having proved with the police that said person was who they were and that they would return with the money that would be the end of the matter, unless said person didn't return with the money.
As far as I am aware it cannot be theft as 'intent to deprive' has to be proved. If the garage did not wish to extend a line in credit to the customer then they can have their fuel back, at the customers expense!!
I assume the BiB in this case tried a charge of theft or obtaining by deception, both of which would not get past the duty inspector let alone the CPS.
All IMHO, and as a layperson that has no formal understanding of legal proceedings in this country
.
I'd be interested to see madcops or any of the more informed legal view point on this, as I've done a simlar thing at petrol stations myself before
but being local ones they've know me and have been happy for me to return in short order with the dosh.
Harry
As far as I am aware it cannot be theft as 'intent to deprive' has to be proved. If the garage did not wish to extend a line in credit to the customer then they can have their fuel back, at the customers expense!!
I assume the BiB in this case tried a charge of theft or obtaining by deception, both of which would not get past the duty inspector let alone the CPS.
All IMHO, and as a layperson that has no formal understanding of legal proceedings in this country
. I'd be interested to see madcops or any of the more informed legal view point on this, as I've done a simlar thing at petrol stations myself before
but being local ones they've know me and have been happy for me to return in short order with the dosh. Harry
I thought it was a criminal offence now days to fill up with petrol when you didn't have the means to pay for it. Certainly says it kis on a lot of pumps, and that you can be arrested for it.
I suspect its one of these things where you can still be done even if you have the intent to pay at the time, and find your wallet is missing.
However we'll see what the answer is.
I suspect its one of these things where you can still be done even if you have the intent to pay at the time, and find your wallet is missing.
However we'll see what the answer is.
It's not legally binding to make sure you have enough to ensure payment. Remember that to detain you is tantamount to kidnapping and therefore A VERY SERIOUS OFFENCE. They also cannot detain your vehicle so legally the station is in a poor position. Realistically it is fair if they ask a stranger to make a deposit of some kind and definately to leave name and address. However you should remember that the staff are normally numpty no-hopers with no sense.
Outlaw
I fully appreciate your position, happened to me a few years ago, not exactley the same circumstances. I was visiting my gran in wiltshire, and half way there went to fill up and after doing so realised I'd left my wallet at home, didn't even have enough change for a mars bar. Went in explained the situation, and the guy was very understanding and filled my details out on a special form (think it was a BP garage). A week later posted the garage the cheque for £20 , no problems.
Most anoying thing was as I was travelling home the same day I suddenly realised that I didn't have any change for the dartford tunnel so had to go through central London and it was London marathon day (DOH!!) took me bloody hours to get through and almost ran out of petrol again!!
I fully appreciate your position, happened to me a few years ago, not exactley the same circumstances. I was visiting my gran in wiltshire, and half way there went to fill up and after doing so realised I'd left my wallet at home, didn't even have enough change for a mars bar. Went in explained the situation, and the guy was very understanding and filled my details out on a special form (think it was a BP garage). A week later posted the garage the cheque for £20 , no problems.
Most anoying thing was as I was travelling home the same day I suddenly realised that I didn't have any change for the dartford tunnel so had to go through central London and it was London marathon day (DOH!!) took me bloody hours to get through and almost ran out of petrol again!!
Find out who the franchisee is and write to them. If you don't get a satisfactory response write to the franchisor (Esso, Shell etc.) and explain what happened. I can only speak for Shell, but it is their policy, in this circumstance, to request ID wherever possible and to ask the customer to fill in a form detailing the circumstances. Customer is then allowed to leave, having been told that if monies are not forthcoming within 2 hours (you can go back, or 'phone up with card details) the police will be contacted.
As for the actual legalities, one for madcop. The impression Shell give is that the offence would be to drive off without demonstrating intent to pay, or at least that is the only circumstance under which they would call the police immediately.
>> Edited by jondokic on Friday 7th March 09:23
As for the actual legalities, one for madcop. The impression Shell give is that the offence would be to drive off without demonstrating intent to pay, or at least that is the only circumstance under which they would call the police immediately.
>> Edited by jondokic on Friday 7th March 09:23
A guy I used to work with had a real problem with queues and waiting, he told me that once he pulled into a garage, filled his car up, and decided he did not want to queue up to pay, so he drove off, then phoned the garage up and payed by credit card!!!!
How he stood legally is anyones guess.
How he stood legally is anyones guess.
that was theft...but I can ahrdly blame him....!
Sorry to hear that Outlaw...Ive done it as well.....and the bloke in the garage, at 10:30pm, was an equal complete tw*t from the sounds of what you've written. In the end, after much argument, I left my tax disc as security (WHY?? WHy did he want that? what the f**k use would that have been if I hadnt come back??? grrr), and came back with the money about 10 miutes later.
I would hope, in your situation, that the cops told the bloke behind the cuonter to be somewhat more helpful......
Sorry to hear that Outlaw...Ive done it as well.....and the bloke in the garage, at 10:30pm, was an equal complete tw*t from the sounds of what you've written. In the end, after much argument, I left my tax disc as security (WHY?? WHy did he want that? what the f**k use would that have been if I hadnt come back??? grrr), and came back with the money about 10 miutes later.
I would hope, in your situation, that the cops told the bloke behind the cuonter to be somewhat more helpful......
I can tell you what happened.
I must have asked the Muppet attendant 10 times to give me a pen so I could leave a name and address totally refused to give me a pen, when he said he call cops. I said ok he rings em . I say let me talk to em too as well, Muppet wont do that too.
So I say are they coming then he says yes. I say ok ill wait and talk to them as I can’t get any sense out of you
All the time staying calm while he raves on.
Would have liked to smack him one but did not, he was really asking for it. Thort about driving off to police station and tell and Leaving my address there.
But I figger, the old fart will say. I just drove off. so I wait for them.
They turn up fairly quick, I walk outside, to the cop when I see it drive in forecourt. As any more time listening to this nutter will make me lose my rag.
While, I calmly explained it fully, to one cop. The other one go` inside to talk to the attendant. The one with me then run a radio check on car and me proving it’s my car and it’s registered to me. He was all so given plenty of details be me so an ID would be easy from police records.
Still acting in a decent manner says “ok we sort it out m8” He then goes inside where the other one talking to the attendant ,who’s still is madly waveing his arm around and acting like a complete dick. Leaving outside so I could have easy left but did not.
Comes back in a bit and says the attendant wants my watch. As security I say I don’t think so. NO way, am I handing over an expensive watch worth May many time the value of £10 of bloody petrol. I say if he’s that worried about it. He can have the blood petrol back tell him to come siphon it and the old fool can have it back.
Cop then try’s to blackmail me if I don’t give this nutter my watch he will nick me for deception but wont if I give the nutter my watch.
Say he will wick ness I gave him the watch. I point out to him that he is not qualified to value a watch and after the way this fool has acted there is no way im handing over a watch worth hundreds for a £10 worth of petrol first he wanted my car now. He wants my watch.
How the old bugger know I had one he must have been eyeing it up to know. I was ever wearing one and took a shine to it. I all so point out him that it’s my belief he dose not have reasonable ground for suspicion to do so. In my opinion. As I have done every reasonable thing I could do sort this out. And was still standing there after having many chances to leave.
But if that’s what he wanted to do, Then to do as he pleased and we could all Talk about if withy my solicitor at the station If he Arrested me.
With that he did. For deception without giving a caution. (I didn’t point that out)
Cuffs on as well.
Get to station custody sergeant look abit worried with this one. Go thru the usual shit refused to sign, that I had been caution I still had not been. I formally requested that it entered in the custody log I want my solicitor as of now. And want my mother informed and my wife checked on as she is mental ill and under medical care and on high medication and will panic if I am not back with in the expected time.
They ignore danger to her ,allow me a phone call to my elderly mother, I explain to her what happened she say well I can pay with her card , so I call cop over, he’s not far away earwiging as they usually do.
I explain same shit all again to the custody sergeant and point out it’s taking the piss now
And tell him this. He says ok
Then it cell time
I again point out my concern for my wallet and credit cards if it not at my home address.
comes back some time later tell me my mothers phoned garage and they wont take the payment from her
And going in one with her. They phoned the garage two I say have you call my solicitor yet They say No I say well go do it now as I already formally asked for him They bugger off some more I press buzzer and again ask have you try to contact my solicitor. They say no.
And get to phoning my solicitor. Was about to tell them to go and tell the duty inspector im making a formal complaint.
He then opens door gives my property say there give garage my name and address
And it’s nothing more to do with them and go on try to justify with all they can see both side positive assertion crap.
No charge layed
No bail sheet
No no action paper
No paper work given what so ever to me on leaving
Then im treated Too a rally drive in the front this time well over the speed limit in wet with one cop back to my car
Did ask him what class out or intrest said what class are you. After a surprised pause he told me told class one saying he just managed to get it before they changed grading. Want too bad only one small skip out on one wet roundabout. Drops me at my car.
Then rally’s off back the other way.
Final find my wallet on hall floor then spending 4 hour convincing wife it really happened
As for the bloody garage the want F**KING 10 quid they can come and get it and write me a hand written vat recite, IN FORNT OF MY SOLISITOR.
Because afar as im concerned there no theft no deception
They could easily confirm who I was and did and there was absolutely no grounds suspicion for an arrest of deception
And I be having a chat with my solicitor about unlawful imprisonment
And wrongful arrest with a view to a civil action
>> Edited by outlaw on Friday 7th March 11:28
I must have asked the Muppet attendant 10 times to give me a pen so I could leave a name and address totally refused to give me a pen, when he said he call cops. I said ok he rings em . I say let me talk to em too as well, Muppet wont do that too.
So I say are they coming then he says yes. I say ok ill wait and talk to them as I can’t get any sense out of you
All the time staying calm while he raves on.
Would have liked to smack him one but did not, he was really asking for it. Thort about driving off to police station and tell and Leaving my address there.
But I figger, the old fart will say. I just drove off. so I wait for them.
They turn up fairly quick, I walk outside, to the cop when I see it drive in forecourt. As any more time listening to this nutter will make me lose my rag.
While, I calmly explained it fully, to one cop. The other one go` inside to talk to the attendant. The one with me then run a radio check on car and me proving it’s my car and it’s registered to me. He was all so given plenty of details be me so an ID would be easy from police records.
Still acting in a decent manner says “ok we sort it out m8” He then goes inside where the other one talking to the attendant ,who’s still is madly waveing his arm around and acting like a complete dick. Leaving outside so I could have easy left but did not.
Comes back in a bit and says the attendant wants my watch. As security I say I don’t think so. NO way, am I handing over an expensive watch worth May many time the value of £10 of bloody petrol. I say if he’s that worried about it. He can have the blood petrol back tell him to come siphon it and the old fool can have it back.
Cop then try’s to blackmail me if I don’t give this nutter my watch he will nick me for deception but wont if I give the nutter my watch.
Say he will wick ness I gave him the watch. I point out to him that he is not qualified to value a watch and after the way this fool has acted there is no way im handing over a watch worth hundreds for a £10 worth of petrol first he wanted my car now. He wants my watch.
How the old bugger know I had one he must have been eyeing it up to know. I was ever wearing one and took a shine to it. I all so point out him that it’s my belief he dose not have reasonable ground for suspicion to do so. In my opinion. As I have done every reasonable thing I could do sort this out. And was still standing there after having many chances to leave.
But if that’s what he wanted to do, Then to do as he pleased and we could all Talk about if withy my solicitor at the station If he Arrested me.
With that he did. For deception without giving a caution. (I didn’t point that out)
Cuffs on as well.
Get to station custody sergeant look abit worried with this one. Go thru the usual shit refused to sign, that I had been caution I still had not been. I formally requested that it entered in the custody log I want my solicitor as of now. And want my mother informed and my wife checked on as she is mental ill and under medical care and on high medication and will panic if I am not back with in the expected time.
They ignore danger to her ,allow me a phone call to my elderly mother, I explain to her what happened she say well I can pay with her card , so I call cop over, he’s not far away earwiging as they usually do.
I explain same shit all again to the custody sergeant and point out it’s taking the piss now
And tell him this. He says ok
Then it cell time
I again point out my concern for my wallet and credit cards if it not at my home address.
comes back some time later tell me my mothers phoned garage and they wont take the payment from her
And going in one with her. They phoned the garage two I say have you call my solicitor yet They say No I say well go do it now as I already formally asked for him They bugger off some more I press buzzer and again ask have you try to contact my solicitor. They say no.
And get to phoning my solicitor. Was about to tell them to go and tell the duty inspector im making a formal complaint.
He then opens door gives my property say there give garage my name and address
And it’s nothing more to do with them and go on try to justify with all they can see both side positive assertion crap.
No charge layed
No bail sheet
No no action paper
No paper work given what so ever to me on leaving
Then im treated Too a rally drive in the front this time well over the speed limit in wet with one cop back to my car
Did ask him what class out or intrest said what class are you. After a surprised pause he told me told class one saying he just managed to get it before they changed grading. Want too bad only one small skip out on one wet roundabout. Drops me at my car.
Then rally’s off back the other way.
Final find my wallet on hall floor then spending 4 hour convincing wife it really happened
As for the bloody garage the want F**KING 10 quid they can come and get it and write me a hand written vat recite, IN FORNT OF MY SOLISITOR.
Because afar as im concerned there no theft no deception
They could easily confirm who I was and did and there was absolutely no grounds suspicion for an arrest of deception
And I be having a chat with my solicitor about unlawful imprisonment
And wrongful arrest with a view to a civil action
>> Edited by outlaw on Friday 7th March 11:28
Nightmare said: that was theft...but I can ahrdly blame him....!
Sorry to hear that Outlaw...Ive done it as well.....and the bloke in the garage, at 10:30pm, was an equal complete tw*t from the sounds of what you've written. In the end, after much argument, I left my tax disc as security (WHY?? WHy did he want that? what the f**k use would that have been if I hadnt come back??? grrr), and came back with the money about 10 miutes later.
I would hope, in your situation, that the cops told the bloke behind the cuonter to be somewhat more helpful......
yea me great what hapens if you get oulled for not displaying it on the way home and back
sounds a compleat dick head
Looks like youve got a great case there if you got the stamina to see it thru. Go get 'em big stylee, you know you'll get all the moral support we can give.
But youve got to pay for the fuel, or it's theft (unless you get the station proprietor to waive it in view of the 100% bollox his employee gave you).
But youve got to pay for the fuel, or it's theft (unless you get the station proprietor to waive it in view of the 100% bollox his employee gave you).
Outlor Y iz yoo incaypabl ov rightin in Inglish? I'll assume it's affectation, rather than dyslexia. Get a solicitor and complain loudly about your human rights - you didn't have a case until they failed to complete the paperwork - but you might have now. At the very least it's worth moaning - just to get the toerag at the garage sacked. Variety of garage ?
This happened to me 5 yrs ago - was driving following wife ( my wallet was in her car !) Petrol station supervisor was not prepared to give me benefit of the doubt so we agreed that a near as possible the fule I'd put in was siphoned out. He suggested leaving spare wheel but not wanting a 100 mile round trip to collect it next day and knowing I'd get a puincture for sure knowing my luck decided not to go that way. He did say that the employees were required to make good any shortages between fuel meters and till rolls at the end of each shift from their own meagre pay so I can see where he was coming from. I would have thought this was illegal under the Employment Acts 1986 ( Unauthorised deductions from wages ) ?
Do they still do this ?
The wording of the threats of "...an offence if you have'nt the means to pay for it " at some stations is technically correct but they carefully omit the qualification that it is not a criminal offence if you have the means to pay but those means are somwhere else.
Do they still do this ?
The wording of the threats of "...an offence if you have'nt the means to pay for it " at some stations is technically correct but they carefully omit the qualification that it is not a criminal offence if you have the means to pay but those means are somwhere else.
Richard C said: He did say that the employees were required to make good any shortages between fuel meters and till rolls at the end of each shift from their own meagre pay so I can see where he was coming from. I would have thought this was illegal under the Employment Acts 1986 ( Unauthorised deductions from wages ) ?
Yes, it's illegal. But is some kid on £4 an hour going to argue with his/her boss if it means the sack ? I don't do this, but staff would be fired if they didn't follow the instructions for what happens if someone cannot pay which are in the official Shell manual, which you can lose your franchise for not following.
I do know some one it happen two in another town. The worker there was a prat too. He call the police but was told that they cant come as no offence has been comited and they were to take his address and let him leav.
and you would only be criminal mater if he had drve off and not payed or did no pay later.
other wise it was not a police matter.
>> Edited by outlaw on Friday 7th March 12:07
and you would only be criminal mater if he had drve off and not payed or did no pay later.
other wise it was not a police matter.
>> Edited by outlaw on Friday 7th March 12:07
Hasn't happened to me but I've been in petrol stations several times where people have been filling out forms because they've mislaid their wallets and only discovered when they've gone to pay.
I was on a jury recently for 2 week private prosection against the police for wrongful arrest and imprisonment - email me off line if you want more info.
Your solicitor will know exactly what paper work should have been filled out at the police station and should be able to take this case up for you.
He should also know whether the bizarre request to hand over you watch was legal and what action to take over that.
I was on a jury recently for 2 week private prosection against the police for wrongful arrest and imprisonment - email me off line if you want more info.
Your solicitor will know exactly what paper work should have been filled out at the police station and should be able to take this case up for you.
He should also know whether the bizarre request to hand over you watch was legal and what action to take over that.
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