Tuesday 17th October 2006

Speed camera loophole confirmed

Lane changing can defeat SPECS cameras

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SPECS cameras

Change lanes and you'll be safe from SPECS, the cameras that calculate your speed over a distance. And it's been officially confirmed too.

SPECS work by measuring your speed over the distance between two cameras, rather than at a single point where you pass the device. But according to the Mail, the Home has admitted that if you pass the second SPECS camera in a different lane to the one in which you passed the first, you cannot be prosecuted.

That's because they're linked and set up to monitor only one traffic lane at a time. In other words, if the system is to monitor a three-lane carriageway, it would need three sets of the pricey cameras.

According to the story, this characteristic of the system was confirmed by the system's maker, Speed Check Services, which said that the system was approved for use only one lane at a time.

SCS technical director Graeme Southwood said that there was neither enough time nor money to test the system under Home Office rules to monitor multiple lanes when the devices were first introduced in 1999. And so the situation has remained.

However, Southwood introduced an element of doubt into the solidity of this method when he said that the loop-hole was not foolproof, and that some drivers who use it could still be prosecuted. SCS said that it discouraged people to lane-change on safety grounds.

Roads policing chief Med Hughes said that it would be dangerous for drivers to swap lanes in order to evade detection. "It is irresponsible for motorists to deliberately seek to evade detection and speed", he said.

The fact remains however that the cameras monitor speed at the expense of other driver behaviour, potentially compromising safety. And now we find that, as has been shown with respect to other types of camera, they could actually be making the roads less safe by encouraging lane-changing.

Road safety campaign Safe Speed said: "We know for sure that road safety hasn't improved as expected in the speed camera era. I believe that this is because speed camera come with dangerous side effects. All cameras cause side effects, but the side effects of average speed cameras appear to be especially subtle and insidious. Speed camera side effects are everywhere, but none of them have been adequately studied."

The trouble is that, if you disapprove of them, there's no political remedy: the Tories introduced them, and New Labour loves them. No-one is promising a change in policy.

[PASTHIM]

Southwood says the cameras cannot monitor vehicles once they change lane then attempts to recover his position by saying drivers could still be prosecuted. I can't see how.

I actually don't mind these cameras too much. At least everyone does the same speed in the same area. It annoys you when some people storm between cameras and some don't.

And what are the two 'mini' cameras either side of the main ones?

[esselte]

PASTHIM said:

Southwood says the cameras cannot monitor vehicles once they change lane then attempts to recover his position by saying drivers could still be prosecuted. I can't see how.

I actually don't mind these cameras too much. At least everyone does the same speed in the same area. It annoys you when some people storm between cameras and some don't.

And what are the two 'mini' cameras either side of the main ones?

I think they're infra red illuminators?

[Rob-C]

Everyone doing the same speed creates its own hazards. People linger in one anothers blind spots, close up the gap on the person in front, won't allow others to enter the lane in front of them, lose concentration.

[tigger1]

Can't they just "pair them up" randomnly, so at the 2nd set of cameras L3 is linked to L2 of the first set, and so on?

[lawrence5]

Paul-o (policeman) posted a bit on the Lotus BBS that adds to the story....

www.british-cars.co.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=lotusbbs&mode=thread&access=&subject=2001&source=T&thread=2006101616022821993

[scotia_steve74]

Brilliant - need a way to get around these beasties!

[alphadog]

Rob-C said:

Everyone doing the same speed creates its own hazards. People linger in one anothers blind spots, close up the gap on the person in front, won't allow others to enter the lane in front of them, lose concentration.

Then you get a lot of people who will hog the outside lane (2 lanes each way) doing 5mph under the limit when the inside is perfectly clear.

There's a particularly annoying installation in Northampton on a 50 limit dual carriageway. Changing lane to make a right turn now involves squeezing into a space between 2 cars going at about the same speed as you are. You have to take your eyes off the road in front many times to accomplish the manoevre, especially if you don't know the area well and start the manoevre after seeing the right turn sign!

[justinp1]

lawrence5 said:

Paul-o (policeman) posted a bit on the Lotus BBS that adds to the story....

www.british-cars.co.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=lotusbbs&mode=thread&access=&subject=2001&source=T&thread=2006101616022821993

I think that is a very good point.

He exemplifies the problem with much of speed inforcement in general - If the ACPO Code of Practice which is supposed to be carried out 'scrupulously', is treated the same way as the common misnomer exemplified in his post - 'ACPO guidelines' then such things such as the methodology of speed enforcement will not matter when the NIP arrives on your doorstep. It will be down to the member of the public to want to fight the system, and re-educate a police office, the CPS and maybe the magistrates as to the proper name of the document in order to prove your innocence. (That was a deliberate statement as when the 'evidence' is presented against you in court that is exactly what you must do...)

And as we know - only a tiny percentage know or have the sticking power to take it that far.

So, in conclusion - if you feel happy that you will be able to defend yourself if an NIP arrives on your doorstep and the 'ACPO guidelines' offer you enough protection then take your chances.

But I certainly wont be relying on this method to work!

[jasandjules]

The main thing IME with Specs is that people will sit in the inside lane, at the speed limit. Then, a slip road appears, person in slip road doing the same speed as person in inside lane. For some reason a red rag appears, neither will slow down (I guess 40mph on the M25 is too slow for them full stop) and then they nearly collide.. I have witnessed this several times now.

[bdeng66]

PASTHIM said:

Southwood says the cameras cannot monitor vehicles once they change lane then attempts to recover his position by saying drivers could still be prosecuted. I can't see how.

I actually don't mind these cameras too much. At least everyone does the same speed in the same area. It annoys you when some people storm between cameras and some don't.

And what are the two 'mini' cameras either side of the main ones?

surely this system is potentially the most dangerous of all as a driver must spend an inordinate amount of time checking his or her speedometer rather than observing the road conditions and vehicles around them?(I and few people I know have cruise control).

just a thought....could this just be propaganda, so we relax and get 'done' anyway?

[JonnyV8]

alphadog said:

Rob-C said:

Everyone doing the same speed creates its own hazards. People linger in one anothers blind spots, close up the gap on the person in front, won't allow others to enter the lane in front of them, lose concentration.

Then you get a lot of people who will hog the outside lane (2 lanes each way) doing 5mph under the limit when the inside is perfectly clear.

There's a particularly annoying installation in Northampton on a 50 limit dual carriageway. Changing lane to make a right turn now involves squeezing into a space between 2 cars going at about the same speed as you are. You have to take your eyes off the road in front many times to accomplish the manoevre, especially if you don't know the area well and start the manoevre after seeing the right turn sign!

That has to be the most annoying thing about motorways/dual carraigeways, I completely respect those who abide by or stay under the speed limit, just NOT IN FRONT OF ME!

[andyps]

[redacted]

[burtjp]

However, Southwood introduced an element of doubt into the solidity of this method when he said that the loop-hole was not foolproof, and that some drivers who use it could still be prosecuted. SCS said that it discouraged people to lane-change on safety grounds.

I don't know what's worse - wanting drivers to implicate themselves in order to not screw up their system
or discouraging the possibility of needing lane discipline.

[esselte]

What Southwood is really saying is "Stand still while I shoot you" :rollseyes:

[Joff]

alphadog said:

There's a particularly annoying installation in Northampton on a 50 limit dual carriageway....

I was going to comment on that - the road (Lumbertubs Way / A43) has several roads joining and exiting , some of which are right at the point of the second "judge and jury" SPECS installation (Weston Favell).

So when traffic is joining, are you going to concentrate on your speed, the SPECS, other road users already on the A43 or those coming down the sliproad at over 50mph (because they join just after the last camera)?

[stsly]

name said:

Then you get a lot of people who will hog the outside lane (2 lanes each way) doing 5mph under the limit when the inside is perfectly clear.

Sounds like normal bozzo motorway driving to me! I am fed up with people that don't move left when it's clear to do so.. But then as your driving test doesn't cover motorway driving only theory what do you expect...

Good to hear about this floor with SPECS. It's been well covered up if it's taken since '99 to come out?

[gooby]

This is even more dangerous. If the system monitors one lane at a time then in a long netwok of cameras (I have seen 6 or more cameras alog a monitored strech of road) If you change lane then you can be prosecuted twice. For speeding in each lane...

[Richards 7]

So there is now an advantage to swapping lanes at regular intervals, thereby making the roads MORE dangerous. Unless we all blindly do what the coppers say, but then we end up filling the coffers with cash. I suspect what will happen that more will change lanes more often, resulting in more danger....ridiculous......But as long as the money keeps rolling in eh?

In SPECS areas I often find 40MPH on a 3 lane motorway a trifle dull and although I try not to find my mind wandering, so not concentrating as I should....safer???? I don't think so !!! but points free. That is , of course until the Polish registered HGV thunders past at 60mph plus..but theres another issue.

R

[Rob-C]

Joff said:

... the road (Lumbertubs Way / A43) has several roads joining and exiting , some of which are right at the point of the second "judge and jury" SPECS installation (Weston Favell).

So when traffic is joining, are you going to concentrate on your speed, the SPECS, other road users already on the A43 or those coming down the sliproad at over 50mph (because they join just after the last camera)?

The infamous M6 SPECS on Thelwall viaduct had the same issue with sliproads exiting and joining partway through the SPECS controlled zone.

The final pair of cameras going North were respectively placed before and after an entering sliproad. So traffic joining from the left (uncontrolled by SPECS, since they had between the two cameras) was mixing it with the others who still had to stick to 40 for another 1/2 mile or so until the final camera was passed.

To make matters worse, the joining sliproad was a lane gain, meaning that traffic on the sliproad did not have to slow down as they entered the motorway. The result being a dangerous situation of being undertaken by a stream of traffic in lane 1 while being tailgated at 40 by a HGV driver in lane 2.

[Bada Bing!]

"SCS said that it discouraged people to lane-change on safety grounds"

Ah, so moving back to the inside lane once you've overtaken is dangerous now, is it?

Edited by Bada Bing! on Tuesday 17th October 12:47