Avon & Somerset Police have a poor accident record
Discussion
I see that the spokesperson from Brake is qoted as saying " as a charity we wonder if it is neccessary for the Police to exceed the speed limit".
I can't see anything in the report that suggests that any of the accidents involved excessive or speed above the limit. I wonder how many of the accidents actually directly involved a police driver let alone those where they were at fault.
I suppose that it goes to prove that the Police have as much, if not more, reasons to be concerned with the present regime of speed enforcement. I see that a number of police drivers received points but none were prosecuted. How is that? Don't you have to be prosecuted to get the points?
I can't see anything in the report that suggests that any of the accidents involved excessive or speed above the limit. I wonder how many of the accidents actually directly involved a police driver let alone those where they were at fault.
I suppose that it goes to prove that the Police have as much, if not more, reasons to be concerned with the present regime of speed enforcement. I see that a number of police drivers received points but none were prosecuted. How is that? Don't you have to be prosecuted to get the points?
Edited by rewc on Thursday 16th November 19:11
rewc said:
I see that the spokesperson from Brake is qoted as saying " as a charity we wonder if it is neccessary for the Police to exceed the speed limit".
I can't see anything in the report that suggests that any of the accidents involved excessive or speed above the limit. I wonder how many of the accidents actually directly involved a police driver let alone those where they were at fault.
I suppose that it goes to prove that the Police have as much, if not more, reasons to be concerned with the present regime of speed enforcement. I see that a number of police drivers received points but none were prosecuted. How is that? Don't you have to be prosecuted to get the points?
I can't see anything in the report that suggests that any of the accidents involved excessive or speed above the limit. I wonder how many of the accidents actually directly involved a police driver let alone those where they were at fault.
I suppose that it goes to prove that the Police have as much, if not more, reasons to be concerned with the present regime of speed enforcement. I see that a number of police drivers received points but none were prosecuted. How is that? Don't you have to be prosecuted to get the points?
Edited by rewc on Thursday 16th November 19:11
Points on their internal Police driving permit.
Not being funny here, but with the standard of the public driving I wouldn't be surprised that Police accidents are on the increase, nor would it shock me if most of them are caused by MOP blindly driving where they shouldn't/straight where the cop was going and forcing them to swerve or crash.
Plenty of drivers on the roads appear almost oblivious of other road users and certainly rarely spot police/ambulances and react well these days. In fact, it actually surprises me when I see a car react quickly !!
Plenty of drivers on the roads appear almost oblivious of other road users and certainly rarely spot police/ambulances and react well these days. In fact, it actually surprises me when I see a car react quickly !!
jasandjules said:
Not being funny here, but with the standard of the public driving I wouldn't be surprised that Police accidents are on the increase, nor would it shock me if most of them are caused by MOP blindly driving where they shouldn't/straight where the cop was going and forcing them to swerve or crash.
Plenty of drivers on the roads appear almost oblivious of other road users and certainly rarely spot police/ambulances and react well these days. In fact, it actually surprises me when I see a car react quickly !!
Plenty of drivers on the roads appear almost oblivious of other road users and certainly rarely spot police/ambulances and react well these days. In fact, it actually surprises me when I see a car react quickly !!
So true.....jasandjules said:
Not being funny here, but with the standard of the public driving I wouldn't be surprised that Police accidents are on the increase, nor would it shock me if most of them are caused by MOP blindly driving where they shouldn't/straight where the cop was going and forcing them to swerve or crash.
Plenty of drivers on the roads appear almost oblivious of other road users and certainly rarely spot police/ambulances and react well these days. In fact, it actually surprises me when I see a car react quickly !!
Plenty of drivers on the roads appear almost oblivious of other road users and certainly rarely spot police/ambulances and react well these days. In fact, it actually surprises me when I see a car react quickly !!
I was thinking the same myself today, watching a trafpol trying to get along a not-very-busy dual carriageway...
That's twice I've agreed with you this week!
tvrgit said:
jasandjules said:
Not being funny here, but with the standard of the public driving I wouldn't be surprised that Police accidents are on the increase, nor would it shock me if most of them are caused by MOP blindly driving where they shouldn't/straight where the cop was going and forcing them to swerve or crash.
Plenty of drivers on the roads appear almost oblivious of other road users and certainly rarely spot police/ambulances and react well these days. In fact, it actually surprises me when I see a car react quickly !!
Plenty of drivers on the roads appear almost oblivious of other road users and certainly rarely spot police/ambulances and react well these days. In fact, it actually surprises me when I see a car react quickly !!
I was thinking the same myself today, watching a trafpol trying to get along a not-very-busy dual carriageway...
That's twice I've agreed with you this week!
I see this regularly on the A13, plod cars have a difficult time but ambulances and the odd fire engine I've seen don't seem to have as much trouble.
I used to be in Bath University Motor Club.... the local police were famous for enjoying a "little" speed back then too (IIRC, wrote off a Sierra Cosworth - rolled into a field whilst "on routine patrol" 
) and were usually very leinient with anyone producing an RCAMSA competition lisence if pulled in an NSL.....
) and were usually very leinient with anyone producing an RCAMSA competition lisence if pulled in an NSL.....[quote from article]But Diane Ferreira, from the road safety charity, Brake added: "It seems quite a lot for just a region. If you work it over a year, it's one every other day.
"We're not knocking the police, they do a fantastic job. All we're suggesting is that it is proven that speed does threaten human life and we are questioning, as a charity, whether they need to exceed the speed limit."[/quote from article]
I wonder why Diana Ferreira has concluded that "it is proven that speed does threaten human life" from the police Polac figures? Is there any information available to her about the individual RTC's to identify speed as the main culprit? If so then it should have been included in the news report.
And in which case she should present these facts rather than trot out the usual unsubstantiated propaganda on speed.
"We're not knocking the police, they do a fantastic job. All we're suggesting is that it is proven that speed does threaten human life and we are questioning, as a charity, whether they need to exceed the speed limit."[/quote from article]
I wonder why Diana Ferreira has concluded that "it is proven that speed does threaten human life" from the police Polac figures? Is there any information available to her about the individual RTC's to identify speed as the main culprit? If so then it should have been included in the news report.
And in which case she should present these facts rather than trot out the usual unsubstantiated propaganda on speed.
vonhosen said:
rewc said:
I see that the spokesperson from Brake is qoted as saying " as a charity we wonder if it is neccessary for the Police to exceed the speed limit".
I can't see anything in the report that suggests that any of the accidents involved excessive or speed above the limit. I wonder how many of the accidents actually directly involved a police driver let alone those where they were at fault.
I suppose that it goes to prove that the Police have as much, if not more, reasons to be concerned with the present regime of speed enforcement. I see that a number of police drivers received points but none were prosecuted. How is that? Don't you have to be prosecuted to get the points?
I can't see anything in the report that suggests that any of the accidents involved excessive or speed above the limit. I wonder how many of the accidents actually directly involved a police driver let alone those where they were at fault.
I suppose that it goes to prove that the Police have as much, if not more, reasons to be concerned with the present regime of speed enforcement. I see that a number of police drivers received points but none were prosecuted. How is that? Don't you have to be prosecuted to get the points?
Edited by rewc on Thursday 16th November 19:11
Points on their internal Police driving permit.
If the drivers were considered blameworthy enough for points on their Authorisation Permit then why did they not receive FP Notices for the offences considered by the TrafPol Senior Officers tasked with supervising the investigation of POLAC's?
I question whether an element of Due Care/Excess speed was present for blame to be attributed to the poice driver, in any event enough "wrong" to require points to be added?
After all points on one's licence is a double bite of the cherry in our Justice System
Does the points system actually count for anything?
How many earned for a Disqulification or re-test for example?
At what level of 'guilt' are points deemed necessary?
How long do they remain on their permit?
Are they admissable as 'evidence of an officer's driving ability' if one is being prosecuted for a driving offenc?
Edited by XMG5 on Friday 17th November 12:18
Well, the headline crash was caused by the car they were following having a smash. So how many others were mostly the fault of someone else? Reports from here suggest a significant minority now completely ignore vehicles travelling on blues and twos.
As for Brake, that's simple. The police should keep a database of Brake members and their addresses, and when responding to a crime involving those people or their property as the victim, observe all speed limits and traffic restrictions.
See how long their stance lasts then...
As for Brake, that's simple. The police should keep a database of Brake members and their addresses, and when responding to a crime involving those people or their property as the victim, observe all speed limits and traffic restrictions.
See how long their stance lasts then...
XMG5 said:
[quote from article]But Diane Ferreira, from the road safety charity, Brake added: "It seems quite a lot for just a region. If you work it over a year, it's one every other day.
"We're not knocking the police, they do a fantastic job. All we're suggesting is that it is proven that speed does threaten human life and we are questioning, as a charity, whether they need to exceed the speed limit."[/quote from article]
I wonder why Diana Ferreira has concluded that "it is proven that speed does threaten human life" from the police Polac figures? Is there any information available to her about the individual RTC's to identify speed as the main culprit? If so then it should have been included in the news report.
And in which case she should present these facts rather than trot out the usual unsubstantiated propaganda on speed.
"We're not knocking the police, they do a fantastic job. All we're suggesting is that it is proven that speed does threaten human life and we are questioning, as a charity, whether they need to exceed the speed limit."[/quote from article]
I wonder why Diana Ferreira has concluded that "it is proven that speed does threaten human life" from the police Polac figures? Is there any information available to her about the individual RTC's to identify speed as the main culprit? If so then it should have been included in the news report.
And in which case she should present these facts rather than trot out the usual unsubstantiated propaganda on speed.
One of my job is investigating polaccs ... or polcolls as the management now like them called. Probably 9 out of 10 doesn't involve much 'speed' at all - most are very, very minor; wing mirrors, a scrape on parking post, etc. Thats without the numerous 'vicinity only' collisions that are recorded which don't even directly involve any damage to the police vehicle i.e. as I mentioned in another post - a police car on call using lights and siren ..... member of public sees police car and pulls out of it's way only to misjudge the parked car on their nearside, clips and breaks a wing mirror - this is still recorded as a vicinity only polacc ..... not really anything to do with the police driver but recorded nevertheless!
Edited by john57 on Friday 17th November 14:32
john57 said:
XMG5 said:
[quote from article]But Diane Ferreira, from the road safety charity, Brake added: "It seems quite a lot for just a region. If you work it over a year, it's one every other day.
"We're not knocking the police, they do a fantastic job. All we're suggesting is that it is proven that speed does threaten human life and we are questioning, as a charity, whether they need to exceed the speed limit."[/quote from article]
I wonder why Diana Ferreira has concluded that "it is proven that speed does threaten human life" from the police Polac figures? Is there any information available to her about the individual RTC's to identify speed as the main culprit? If so then it should have been included in the news report.
And in which case she should present these facts rather than trot out the usual unsubstantiated propaganda on speed.
"We're not knocking the police, they do a fantastic job. All we're suggesting is that it is proven that speed does threaten human life and we are questioning, as a charity, whether they need to exceed the speed limit."[/quote from article]
I wonder why Diana Ferreira has concluded that "it is proven that speed does threaten human life" from the police Polac figures? Is there any information available to her about the individual RTC's to identify speed as the main culprit? If so then it should have been included in the news report.
And in which case she should present these facts rather than trot out the usual unsubstantiated propaganda on speed.
One of my job is investigating polaccs ... or polcolls as the management now like them called. Probably 9 out of 10 doesn't involve much 'speed' at all - most are very, very minor; wing mirrors, a scrape on parking post, etc. Thats without the numerous 'vicinity only' collisions that are recorded which don't even directly involve any damage to the police vehicle i.e. as I mentioned in another post - a police car on call using lights and siren ..... member of public sees police car and pulls out of it's way only to misjudge the parked car on their nearside, clips and breaks a wing mirror - this is still recorded as a vicinity only polacc ..... not really anything to do with the police driver but recorded nevertheless!
Edited by john57 on Friday 17th November 14:32
Thanks for that john57, in which case her reference to 'speed threatening life' is all the more ridiculous when speaking out on the subject of A&S's polac stats.
VH, still awaiting comment on your post about penalty points on officers' permits? Not stirring it but genuinely interested in the answers?
subtitle said:
There were 209 accidents involving Avon and Somerset Police vehicles on emergency duty in the last 12 months
brake said:
It seems quite a lot for just a region. If you work it over a year, it's one every other day.
Brake are as good at their stats as the government. Someone buy them a calendar for christmas
XMG5 said:
vonhosen said:
rewc said:
I see that the spokesperson from Brake is qoted as saying " as a charity we wonder if it is neccessary for the Police to exceed the speed limit".
I can't see anything in the report that suggests that any of the accidents involved excessive or speed above the limit. I wonder how many of the accidents actually directly involved a police driver let alone those where they were at fault.
I suppose that it goes to prove that the Police have as much, if not more, reasons to be concerned with the present regime of speed enforcement. I see that a number of police drivers received points but none were prosecuted. How is that? Don't you have to be prosecuted to get the points?
I can't see anything in the report that suggests that any of the accidents involved excessive or speed above the limit. I wonder how many of the accidents actually directly involved a police driver let alone those where they were at fault.
I suppose that it goes to prove that the Police have as much, if not more, reasons to be concerned with the present regime of speed enforcement. I see that a number of police drivers received points but none were prosecuted. How is that? Don't you have to be prosecuted to get the points?
Edited by rewc on Thursday 16th November 19:11
Points on their internal Police driving permit.
If the drivers were considered blameworthy enough for points on their Authorisation Permit then why did they not receive FP Notices for the offences considered by the TrafPol Senior Officers tasked with supervising the investigation of POLAC's?
I question whether an element of Due Care/Excess speed was present for blame to be attributed to the poice driver, in any event enough "wrong" to require points to be added?
After all points on one's licence is a double bite of the cherry in our Justice System
Does the points system actually count for anything?
How many earned for a Disqulification or re-test for example?
At what level of 'guilt' are points deemed necessary?
How long do they remain on their permit?
Are they admissable as 'evidence of an officer's driving ability' if one is being prosecuted for a driving offenc?
Edited by XMG5 on Friday 17th November 12:18
Points awarded on a driving permit are awarded on balance of probability and not beyond reasonable doubt as in court cases.
Bear in mind clipping a wing mirror will usually award 1 point on your permit even non fault.
So even if there is a no fault accident you could still get points. Its a hard process to explain. If i was on blues and 2's and one car in the offside lande comming towards me panic brakes for no reason and he gets shunted from behind, technically i could get points for that as they could deam i did not need to use warning equipment and it was the presence of me and my emergengy kit lit up that caused the collision. Regardless of how far away i am.
we are permitted 12 points in 3 years. If we recieve i believe 6 - 9 points in a year we are suspended pending a weeks course to evaluate and adress issues in the drivinf. 12 points is a ban from driving police vehicles for a period of time (cant remember how long).
The burden of proof is considerable lower for police permits, but can be used in court i suspect but the weight given to the evidence will be alot less due to the burden of proof.
So alot of the time there is no evidence for careless driving etc but we will recieve points on our driving permits if it is possible we were careless. (and alot of the time there is little or no evidence offered) and we are given the points. There are no endorement codes.
HTH
XMG5 said:
vonhosen said:
rewc said:
I see that the spokesperson from Brake is qoted as saying " as a charity we wonder if it is neccessary for the Police to exceed the speed limit".
I can't see anything in the report that suggests that any of the accidents involved excessive or speed above the limit. I wonder how many of the accidents actually directly involved a police driver let alone those where they were at fault.
I suppose that it goes to prove that the Police have as much, if not more, reasons to be concerned with the present regime of speed enforcement. I see that a number of police drivers received points but none were prosecuted. How is that? Don't you have to be prosecuted to get the points?
I can't see anything in the report that suggests that any of the accidents involved excessive or speed above the limit. I wonder how many of the accidents actually directly involved a police driver let alone those where they were at fault.
I suppose that it goes to prove that the Police have as much, if not more, reasons to be concerned with the present regime of speed enforcement. I see that a number of police drivers received points but none were prosecuted. How is that? Don't you have to be prosecuted to get the points?
Edited by rewc on Thursday 16th November 19:11
Points on their internal Police driving permit.
If the drivers were considered blameworthy enough for points on their Authorisation Permit then why did they not receive FP Notices for the offences considered by the TrafPol Senior Officers tasked with supervising the investigation of POLAC's?
I question whether an element of Due Care/Excess speed was present for blame to be attributed to the poice driver, in any event enough "wrong" to require points to be added?
After all points on one's licence is a double bite of the cherry in our Justice System
Does the points system actually count for anything?
How many earned for a Disqulification or re-test for example?
At what level of 'guilt' are points deemed necessary?
How long do they remain on their permit?
Are they admissable as 'evidence of an officer's driving ability' if one is being prosecuted for a driving offenc?
Edited by XMG5 on Friday 17th November 12:18
You're being judged against a different standard & to a different burden of proof.
There can be insufficient evidence to prove an offence against you beyond all reasonable doubt, but there can be sufficient evidence on the balance of probabilities that you have fallen below the standards expected under roadcraft.
The collision could be pretty much down to the other party, but if in the opinion of the IO you should have avoided it (if you were doing what you had been trained to), there is still culpability on your part & you will be held to account on your Police permit.
Points are also issued for non collisions, such as putting wrong fuel in the vehicle, smoking in the vehicle etc etc.
The points on the permit are a very real problem for officers.
They stay valid for 3 years & if you accumulate more than 6 you can't have any higher level training & you can't apply for any post that has driving as requirement (effectively that can put your chosen career path on hold).
Beyond that interventions take place & ultimately banned from driving Police vehicles (all without any points on your DSA licence).
If you get 7 points on your DSA licence you can't drive Police vehicles until you drop back below 7 points.
edit
***
Sorry just seen Sliders reply, I'll leave it as there are a few different aspects covered in each.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 17th November 17:46
I feel that I should just add something to this discussion. You have to remember that Police drivers do so voluntarily, they don't have to drive. The Police permit system is good, as are the IDR ('black boxes) that are fitted to most vehicles now. Police Officers don't want to have Polcolls, but yes they do occur.
It's a very slippery slope to suggest that more Police drivers recieve points or NIP's concerning their private licences. If this should ever become common, I for one will refuse to drive Police vehicles, and having spoken to colleagues I know I wouldn't be alone. Who would answer emergency calls then?
I've personally seen two police cars crash fairly recently.
Both were on 30mph roads. One was in Weston Super mare right outside Mcdonalds. The young officer tried taking the round about too quick in the rain and ended up on the pavement with his frontwheels hanging off.
The other, below, was in Burnham On Sea on a quiet residential road. The officer was in hot pursuit of a lad who had stolen some alcohol from the local supermarket and was making his get-away on a bicycle. The chase ended up with the police car on its roof after attempting a U turn. Mustn't laugh.
Both were on 30mph roads. One was in Weston Super mare right outside Mcdonalds. The young officer tried taking the round about too quick in the rain and ended up on the pavement with his frontwheels hanging off.
The other, below, was in Burnham On Sea on a quiet residential road. The officer was in hot pursuit of a lad who had stolen some alcohol from the local supermarket and was making his get-away on a bicycle. The chase ended up with the police car on its roof after attempting a U turn. Mustn't laugh.
Hollywood Wheels said:
I feel that I should just add something to this discussion. You have to remember that Police drivers do so voluntarily, they don't have to drive. The Police permit system is good, as are the IDR ('black boxes) that are fitted to most vehicles now. Police Officers don't want to have Polcolls, but yes they do occur.
It's a very slippery slope to suggest that more Police drivers recieve points or NIP's concerning their private licences. If this should ever become common, I for one will refuse to drive Police vehicles, and having spoken to colleagues I know I wouldn't be alone. Who would answer emergency calls then?
All that will happen then is that your employer will make it a requirement that to be a Police Officer you must hold a driving licence and make driving part of your duties. There are millions of members of the public who have to drive as a by product of their employment. I do not suggest for one moment that a Policeman should have stronger conditions attached to their private driving licence than anybody else but they should not get special treatment either.
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