ANPR Illegal?..........
Discussion
www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/204277/spy_cams_facing_legal_threat.html
"Spy cams facing legal threat
Police who use Automatic Number Plate Recognition cameras (ANPRs) to catch crooks and road-tax dodgers could face a legal double whammy.
Auto Express can reveal that the Home Office is reviewing the status of ANPRs after the Chief Surveillance Commissioner advised that they could be operating unlawfully.
What's more, experts believe all ANPRs must be properly signed, warning motorists of their use, or the information they collect should not be used in court. Sir Andrew Leggatt, the Chief Surveillance Commissioner, says some ANPRs could qualify as covert surveillance under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, and would be illegal if the police don't have permission to use them in such a way.
"The admissibility at trial of evidence which is obtained in this way would probably depend on whether its admission would have an adverse effect on the fairness of the proceedings," Sir Andrew said. A Home Office representative explained: "There may be some issues surrounding the use of images from third-party sources, such as the Highways Agency."
And without appropriate signage, using ANPRs would breach Data Protection legislation, according to the Information Commissioner's Office."
"Spy cams facing legal threat
Police who use Automatic Number Plate Recognition cameras (ANPRs) to catch crooks and road-tax dodgers could face a legal double whammy.
Auto Express can reveal that the Home Office is reviewing the status of ANPRs after the Chief Surveillance Commissioner advised that they could be operating unlawfully.
What's more, experts believe all ANPRs must be properly signed, warning motorists of their use, or the information they collect should not be used in court. Sir Andrew Leggatt, the Chief Surveillance Commissioner, says some ANPRs could qualify as covert surveillance under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, and would be illegal if the police don't have permission to use them in such a way.
"The admissibility at trial of evidence which is obtained in this way would probably depend on whether its admission would have an adverse effect on the fairness of the proceedings," Sir Andrew said. A Home Office representative explained: "There may be some issues surrounding the use of images from third-party sources, such as the Highways Agency."
And without appropriate signage, using ANPRs would breach Data Protection legislation, according to the Information Commissioner's Office."
Goochie said:
They'll just get the law changed to make them legal.
And quite rightly. Whilst there is a [correct] growing public outcry at Scameras, most people have nothing to fear about ANPR when used to target those without insurance etc.
Obviously we don't want them on every street corner mind...
UpTheIron said:
most people have nothing to fear about ANPR when used to target those without insurance etc.
10 or 20 years ago I would have agreed with you, even now I'd like to but having seen how Scameras have been abused and the slimey way the current pond-life government operate I can't help thinking that what should be a useful tool will inevitably be abused for political and/or financial ends
Dan Friel said:
UpTheIron said:
Obviously we don't want them on every street corner mind...
Why not? Catch all the scum and my insurance premium may go down next year!
Do you honestly think that Insurance companies will lower your premium, even if all uninsured drivers were removed from the road?
Edited by catso on Thursday 21st December 22:54
Boosted LS1 said:
eccles said:
i can't see how ANPR is different to a copper noticing your number plate, radioing it in for a check and then stopping you, its just does it more efficiently.
But it can be abused and is the gateway for worse to come.
Boosted.
how can it be abused more than a copper radioing in a request? (apart from doing it faster)
eccles said:
how can it be abused more than a copper radioing in a request? (apart from doing it faster)
Oh, I've already had this chat with that nice Ms Blears from the Home Orifice. Apparently, even though they're going to be coating the motorways with them (one every 400 yards, apparently) and they're going to keep records of all your movements for five years on the off-chance that you might be a crook, you have nothing to fear.
By the way, did you know that traveling up a motorway in convoy with a criminal or other "person of interest" will bring you to the attention of the police? So just being in proximity with someone being actively monitored will now bring you to police attention.
So no, I can't see it being abused.
At all.
Really.
eccles said:
Boosted LS1 said:
eccles said:
i can't see how ANPR is different to a copper noticing your number plate, radioing it in for a check and then stopping you, its just does it more efficiently.
But it can be abused and is the gateway for worse to come.
Boosted.
how can it be abused more than a copper radioing in a request? (apart from doing it faster)
Because it allows the Police to issue country wide stops on specific types of vehicles without doing their homework and being diligent in what the stop request details are. It allows lazy people to rely on technology rather than do their jobs properly, no longer is it the copper looking at the car and thinking something isnt right so do some radio checks, now the computer says stop the car and the checks are done later.
I spent 8 hours in Police cells after being arested on suspition of murder, because i was passenger in a car that was incorectly flagged for stopping by ANPR.
Now you imagine being the passenger in a car on your way from your work, with your new boss in the car in front of you, sudenly having two police bikes and an unmarked car force you off the road, spread eagle you at the side of the car, handcuff you, stick you in the back of a caged transit, 2 police bike escort to the station, photographed, fingerprinted, DNA samples taken, stuck in a cell from 8pm till 3:30am with no interview, car towed away breaking the gearbox (2wd lift for a 4wd car). This is the short version of what happened.
The car was legal, the DVLA records were faulty, the stop request details were hopelessly inadequate. I am white, they were looking for black men. The murder (shooting) happened 200 miles away in Birmingham, i was in portsmouth. The murder happened 9 months earlier.
johnfelstead said:
The car was legal, the DVLA records were faulty, the stop request details were hopelessly inadequate. I am white, they were looking for black men. The murder (shooting) happened 200 miles away in Birmingham, i was in portsmouth. The murder happened 9 months earlier.
But, but, but ... that nice Ms Blears assured me that this sort of thing couldn't possibly happen! I'm sure you're just telling fibs. She wouldn't lie to me, would she?
johnfelstead said:
eccles said:
Boosted LS1 said:
eccles said:
i can't see how ANPR is different to a copper noticing your number plate, radioing it in for a check and then stopping you, its just does it more efficiently.
But it can be abused and is the gateway for worse to come.
Boosted.
how can it be abused more than a copper radioing in a request? (apart from doing it faster)
Because it allows the Police to issue country wide stops on specific types of vehicles without doing their homework and being diligent in what the stop request details are. It allows lazy people to rely on technology rather than do their jobs properly, no longer is it the copper looking at the car and thinking something isnt right so do some radio checks, now the computer says stop the car and the checks are done later.
I spent 8 hours in Police cells after being arested on suspition of murder, because i was passenger in a car that was incorectly flagged for stopping by ANPR.
Now you imagine being the passenger in a car on your way from your work, with your new boss in the car in front of you, sudenly having two police bikes and an unmarked car force you off the road, spread eagle you at the side of the car, handcuff you, stick you in the back of a caged transit, 2 police bike escort to the station, photographed, fingerprinted, DNA samples taken, stuck in a cell from 8pm till 3:30am with no interview, car towed away breaking the gearbox (2wd lift for a 4wd car). This is the short version of what happened.
The car was legal, the DVLA records were faulty, the stop request details were hopelessly inadequate. I am white, they were looking for black men. The murder (shooting) happened 200 miles away in Birmingham, i was in portsmouth. The murder happened 9 months earlier.
Yeh but right but it could have been you. Honest mistake guv! Sort out the police complaints stuff before you think of a prosecution if you decide to go that route.
I've been there to.
Boosted.
chrispy porker said:
Don't read too much into this chaps, I think he is talking about covert ANPR, which are covered by RIPA, not the far from covert set ups by most roadsides. Think targetted surveillance, Still it makes a good non story I suppose.
cp - no he's not. In his Annual Report he is referring to the ANPR cameras operated overtly, but pointed out that they could be classified as operating covertly and therefore be illegal. He wrote: "The unanimous view of the Commissioners is that the existing legislation is not apt to deal with the fundamental problems to which the deployment of ANPR cameras gives rise." He continued: "The Commissioners are of the view that legislation is likely to be required to establish a satisfactory framework to allow for the latest technological advances." The Home Office is considering whether primary or secondary legislation might be required to legalise the use of ANPR. Sir Andrew also said that the use of the cameras could be categorised as covert surveillance under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) and warned that the questionable legal status of the covert cameras could impact on prosecutions, "The admissibility at trial of evidence obtained in this way would probably depend on whether its admission would have an adverse effect on the fairness of the proceedings."
As ANPR cameras collect personal data on every car that passes, they are subject to the fair processing obligations under the Data Protection Act 1998. In turn this means that there should be transparency of data collection and drivers and people in cars should thus know that there are cameras in use. Thus the cameras cannot be operated covertly and signage must be properly and adequately deployed. It is reported elsewhere that an ACPO document states that: "The [DPA] does not specify where the signs are to be placed in relation to the camera site. Indeed nothing in the Act would prevent the signs being displayed at or even after the camera site."
The Information Commissioner's Office said that: "Anyone operating cameras [of any survelliance type] must work within our CCTV code of practice." The ICO agrees that for cameras to obey the [Act's] fair processing obligations, anyone being recorded would have to be notified by signs, "Our guidelines say that for any CCTV system there has to be clear and appropriate signage to alert people to their use. This is more complicated in relation to fast moving vehicles and safety and the amount of signs on stretches of road."
The Surveillance Commission's Annual Report also said that even the obvious signposting of the existence of cameras was not enough to make their use legally watertight, "It is arguable that even if the presence of an ANPR camera is apparent, surveillance nevertheless remains covert if occupants of vehicles are unaware that the camera may make and record identifiable images of them. It is not possible to lay down rules as to what will amount to adequate notice of the presence of the camera and of its function."
Interesting stuff, but if any legislation is required, it will be applied (if secondary legislation is sufficient, it can be applied practically immediately) and can be made retrospective. It would be for the courts to decide whether to admit evidence from ANPR in any case before them.
Streaky
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