Caught by Red Light Camera - PACE Letter Applicable?
Discussion
Have just received a NIP for contravening a red traffic light signal.
Am guilty as charged, but am peeved due to the fact that it was obvious I presented no danger in going through the light (clear sighted junction, rural location, no other road users, late at night).
My license is clean, I've never had a single point on my license or been stopped for speeding etc.
I'm considering using the PACE letter, and am just wondering if anybody else has used the same defense?
For more info on PACE, see: www.pepipoo.com
Am guilty as charged, but am peeved due to the fact that it was obvious I presented no danger in going through the light (clear sighted junction, rural location, no other road users, late at night).
My license is clean, I've never had a single point on my license or been stopped for speeding etc.
I'm considering using the PACE letter, and am just wondering if anybody else has used the same defense?
For more info on PACE, see: www.pepipoo.com
Edited by Andy M on Tuesday 27th February 16:41
Careful, you'll not receive much sympathy in these parts for a red light offence!
However, if you received a form marked "S172 - notice of intended prosecution" or similar, then you should be able to use the PACE argument.
Check www.pepipoo.com for full advice on this matter.
However, if you received a form marked "S172 - notice of intended prosecution" or similar, then you should be able to use the PACE argument.
Check www.pepipoo.com for full advice on this matter.
[quote=Andy M]Have just received a NIP for contravening a red traffic light signal.
Am guilty as charged, but am peeved due to the fact that it was obvious I presented no danger in going through the light (clear sighted junction, rural location, no other road users, late at night).
Andy, If it goes to court you are unlikely to be found not guilty especially if you admit "Guilty as charged". Running the light is an absolute offence all the mitigating factors you mention will not alter that. I can see you in court, pleading guilty to the offence, and then expecting less than the £60 and 3 points on offer. Of course you feel peeved and hurt that you are joining the masses with points on their licence but it may save you a lot of heartache and some money if you accept the offer of the FPN.
Am guilty as charged, but am peeved due to the fact that it was obvious I presented no danger in going through the light (clear sighted junction, rural location, no other road users, late at night).
Andy, If it goes to court you are unlikely to be found not guilty especially if you admit "Guilty as charged". Running the light is an absolute offence all the mitigating factors you mention will not alter that. I can see you in court, pleading guilty to the offence, and then expecting less than the £60 and 3 points on offer. Of course you feel peeved and hurt that you are joining the masses with points on their licence but it may save you a lot of heartache and some money if you accept the offer of the FPN.
Thanks for the replies 
I was warned about this
That would be a bit silly - unless you didn't see the camera...in which case might you have missed any other "hazards"?
It would be wrong of me to suggest I didn't deliberately jump the red light, as it was the path I chose, but it was reactionary rather than being premeditated. I actually passed the light on the very second it went from amber to red.
The stretch of road in particular is a 50mph limit, and I was making decent progress without other road users about. Seeing the conditions I had not expected the lights to change, and so had not taken my foot off the pedal on approach to the lights, as I would usually do. Therefore, to stop in time would have meant harsh braking, hence my reaction.
Quite embarrassingly I did miss the camera, but it was because I was looking for other hazards, rather than being preoccupied with something else.
Once I saw the two flashes from the camera, I actually stopped and made a u-turn to see why the lights had changed, and where the camera was situated. Again, embarrassingly the camera was in view (not hidden), but there was no other traffic and thus no apparent reason for the lights to change.
puggit said:
Careful, you'll not receive much sympathy in these parts for a red light offence!
I was warned about this
tigger1 said:
7db said:
Did you deliberately jump the red light with the camera on it?
That would be a bit silly - unless you didn't see the camera...in which case might you have missed any other "hazards"?
It would be wrong of me to suggest I didn't deliberately jump the red light, as it was the path I chose, but it was reactionary rather than being premeditated. I actually passed the light on the very second it went from amber to red.
The stretch of road in particular is a 50mph limit, and I was making decent progress without other road users about. Seeing the conditions I had not expected the lights to change, and so had not taken my foot off the pedal on approach to the lights, as I would usually do. Therefore, to stop in time would have meant harsh braking, hence my reaction.
Quite embarrassingly I did miss the camera, but it was because I was looking for other hazards, rather than being preoccupied with something else.
Once I saw the two flashes from the camera, I actually stopped and made a u-turn to see why the lights had changed, and where the camera was situated. Again, embarrassingly the camera was in view (not hidden), but there was no other traffic and thus no apparent reason for the lights to change.
not flaming, please take this as constructive feedback.
1. You failed to anticipate the lights changing. The lack of traffic should not make you assume that they wouldn't change.
2. It sounds like you were doing more than 50mph (if I am wrong I apologise). Not that sensible given that you weren't able to brake in time without having a "moment".
3. Fair enough point that you were busy observing other bits of the road and missed the traffic light camera. However, the fact that you missed the camera, and weren't able to stop despite seeing the amber light come on (as you crossed on amber/red) suggests to me that you may have been travelling too fast for the conditions.
As others have said, lesson learnt, and please take this in the right way - I am far from perfect, except when it comes to others diving
1. You failed to anticipate the lights changing. The lack of traffic should not make you assume that they wouldn't change.
2. It sounds like you were doing more than 50mph (if I am wrong I apologise). Not that sensible given that you weren't able to brake in time without having a "moment".
3. Fair enough point that you were busy observing other bits of the road and missed the traffic light camera. However, the fact that you missed the camera, and weren't able to stop despite seeing the amber light come on (as you crossed on amber/red) suggests to me that you may have been travelling too fast for the conditions.
As others have said, lesson learnt, and please take this in the right way - I am far from perfect, except when it comes to others diving
7db said:
Hardly the end of the world, unless you're on 9pts, I suppose (and even then...)
It's a slap on the wrist, and if you get one of those a year, perhaps 6 months off is a good thing.
It's a slap on the wrist, and if you get one of those a year, perhaps 6 months off is a good thing.
I'm on zero points, so this will be the first. I don't intend to receive further
Bing o said:
not flaming, please take this as constructive feedback.
1. You failed to anticipate the lights changing. The lack of traffic should not make you assume that they wouldn't change.
2. It sounds like you were doing more than 50mph (if I am wrong I apologise). Not that sensible given that you weren't able to brake in time without having a "moment".
3. Fair enough point that you were busy observing other bits of the road and missed the traffic light camera. However, the fact that you missed the camera, and weren't able to stop despite seeing the amber light come on (as you crossed on amber/red) suggests to me that you may have been travelling too fast for the conditions.
As others have said, lesson learnt, and please take this in the right way - I am far from perfect, except when it comes to others diving
1. You failed to anticipate the lights changing. The lack of traffic should not make you assume that they wouldn't change.
2. It sounds like you were doing more than 50mph (if I am wrong I apologise). Not that sensible given that you weren't able to brake in time without having a "moment".
3. Fair enough point that you were busy observing other bits of the road and missed the traffic light camera. However, the fact that you missed the camera, and weren't able to stop despite seeing the amber light come on (as you crossed on amber/red) suggests to me that you may have been travelling too fast for the conditions.
As others have said, lesson learnt, and please take this in the right way - I am far from perfect, except when it comes to others diving
Bing o - no worries, I appreciate your feedback.
1 - I'd always thought traffic lights to be there to manage traffic, and to improve flow. When a car is the only traffic on that stretch of road, and there is no other traffic around, would you not be justified in expecting the lights not to halt flow?
2 - I was doing more than 50 (not a lot more - maybe 60), but on a wide road with good visibility and good conditions. I could have braked in time, but did not want to brake harshly.
3 - Missing the camera was, as Ron Dennis would put it, a moment of 'brain fade'. I wasn't tired while driving, or preoccupied with anything else, and so feel a bit stupid not to have seen it (I'm usually quite good at spotting them from a fair distance).
We live and learn...
On point 1, I would always anticipate them changing - traffic lights in areas of this country seem to be set to switch to red when a vehicle approaches, or maybe it is just murphy's law at work.
Still, little harm done, and any experience you walk away from is a valuable one I guess!
Still, little harm done, and any experience you walk away from is a valuable one I guess!
7db said:
if you get one of those a year, perhaps 6 months off is a good thing.
If you get one a year, then theoretically, the first one would "drop off the end" by the time you got the fourth one, so you would perpetually keep your licence, and have 9 points. Now there's a plan! Think of it this way: once a year, for a £60 fee, you are "allowed" to drive through a red traffic light, and you keep your driving licence! lol
Edited by richburley on Wednesday 28th February 11:19
Andy M said:
Have just received a NIP for contravening a red traffic light signal.
Am guilty as charged, but am peeved due to the fact that it was obvious I presented no danger in going through the light (clear sighted junction, rural location, no other road users, late at night).
My license is clean, I've never had a single point on my license or been stopped for speeding etc.
I'm considering using the PACE letter, and am just wondering if anybody else has used the same defense?
For more info on PACE, see: www.pepipoo.com
Am guilty as charged, but am peeved due to the fact that it was obvious I presented no danger in going through the light (clear sighted junction, rural location, no other road users, late at night).
My license is clean, I've never had a single point on my license or been stopped for speeding etc.
I'm considering using the PACE letter, and am just wondering if anybody else has used the same defense?
For more info on PACE, see: www.pepipoo.com
Edited by Andy M on Tuesday 27th February 16:41
so you claim to be observent enough to notice no other road users in any direction but not enough to see the camera????
not the best defence i have heard
Andy M said:
...1 - I'd always thought traffic lights to be there to manage traffic, and to improve flow....
You're not from around these parts, are you? For some time now -- and I think finally admitted in official documents -- "traffic management" for cars is there to increase journey times, reduce enjoyment, deepen that nagging feeling of being disliked, and so to get you onto public transport.
Any similarity between official policy and improving traffic flow is entirely accidental.
I suggest you also get a decent "accident blackspot" locator. The files from pocketgpsworld are brilliant and worth the subscription.
Andy M said:
7db said:
Hardly the end of the world, unless you're on 9pts, I suppose (and even then...)
It's a slap on the wrist, and if you get one of those a year, perhaps 6 months off is a good thing.
It's a slap on the wrist, and if you get one of those a year, perhaps 6 months off is a good thing.
I'm on zero points, so this will be the first. I don't intend to receive further
Bing o said:
not flaming, please take this as constructive feedback.
1. You failed to anticipate the lights changing. The lack of traffic should not make you assume that they wouldn't change.
2. It sounds like you were doing more than 50mph (if I am wrong I apologise). Not that sensible given that you weren't able to brake in time without having a "moment".
3. Fair enough point that you were busy observing other bits of the road and missed the traffic light camera. However, the fact that you missed the camera, and weren't able to stop despite seeing the amber light come on (as you crossed on amber/red) suggests to me that you may have been travelling too fast for the conditions.
As others have said, lesson learnt, and please take this in the right way - I am far from perfect, except when it comes to others diving
1. You failed to anticipate the lights changing. The lack of traffic should not make you assume that they wouldn't change.
2. It sounds like you were doing more than 50mph (if I am wrong I apologise). Not that sensible given that you weren't able to brake in time without having a "moment".
3. Fair enough point that you were busy observing other bits of the road and missed the traffic light camera. However, the fact that you missed the camera, and weren't able to stop despite seeing the amber light come on (as you crossed on amber/red) suggests to me that you may have been travelling too fast for the conditions.
As others have said, lesson learnt, and please take this in the right way - I am far from perfect, except when it comes to others diving
Bing o - no worries, I appreciate your feedback.
1 - I'd always thought traffic lights to be there to manage traffic, and to improve flow. When a car is the only traffic on that stretch of road, and there is no other traffic around, would you not be justified in expecting the lights not to halt flow?
2 - I was doing more than 50 (not a lot more - maybe 60), but on a wide road with good visibility and good conditions. I could have braked in time, but did not want to brake harshly.
3 - Missing the camera was, as Ron Dennis would put it, a moment of 'brain fade'. I wasn't tired while driving, or preoccupied with anything else, and so feel a bit stupid not to have seen it (I'm usually quite good at spotting them from a fair distance).
We live and learn...
Ach... but somtimes they might be programmed to change if they detect car approaching a bit fast. Some EU countries do this.
Besides .. I have to say there are signs .. oddly with better warning und size around here warning of "Traffic Light und Speed Cameras". Scams different... sole aim to make cash. Traffic Light ones ... apart from one on A580 we came across .. usually within reasoned changing und serving long crossings.
But these days .. some are not to "manage anything other than congestion"
But see traffic lights ahead.. if been on green for a while.. inevitable they will change even where not "managed to cause congestion und "justify" lure of more easy cash" Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff