PeeC eeeeeeee Target Culture Attacked By PCs
Discussion
From the BBC und the Telegraph und the Indy und the Grauniad who all carry this story from my early persural of the papers on -line 
Police condemn 'target culture'
The Police Federation says 'target culture' stops officers doing their job
Frontline police officers are calling for an end to the "target-driven culture" they say is forcing them to make arrests for petty offences.
The Police Federation of England and Wales says government targets lead to "ludicrous" decisions such as arresting a child for throwing a cucumber slice.
It also warns that detectives are being diverted from serious cases to deal with trivial crimes.
The federation will discuss the issue at its annual conference later.
At the conference in Blackpool, police will debate whether judging officers purely on numbers of arrests, cautions or on-the-spot fines is the best way to assess success.
Dossier published
The federation, which represents 130,000 rank-and-file officers, has published a dossier of "ludicrous" cases it claims are the result of Home Office targets.
The cases include:
A man from Cheshire who was cautioned for being "found in possession of an egg with intent to throw"
A child in Kent who was arrested after removing a slice of cucumber from a sandwich and throwing it at another youngster
A West Midlands woman arrested on her wedding day for criminal damage after her foot slipped on her accelerator pedal and her vehicle damaged a car park barrier
Understandably, when the public hears about this they ask 'What the hell is going on?'
Police Federation spokesman
A child from Kent who was arrested for throwing cream buns at a bus
A 70-year-old Cheshire pensioner who was arrested for criminal damage after cutting back a neighbour's conifer trees
An officer in the West Midlands who was told to caution a man for throwing a glass of water over his girlfriend
Two children from Manchester who were arrested for being in possession of a plastic toy pistol
A spokesman for the federation said such cases were a result of officers being "so busy chasing targets and securing ticks in boxes".
As a result, he said, officers were distancing themselves from middle England.
The list of compiled cases showed incidents where officers had been "under such pressure to deliver it has resulted in an arrest or caution when even the officer themselves thinks it is ludicrous", he said.
"Understandably, when the public hears about this they ask 'What the hell is going on?'."
'Talking to'
Federation chairman Jan Berry said some officers were considering leaving the service over the issue because it was "not the job they signed up to do".
She added: "Just talking to people and giving them a few words of advice cannot be counted as easily as a ticket can be.
"But sometimes it is just as effective as taking someone to court."
Mrs Berry added that the issue would be raised with Home Secretary John Reid later in the week when he attends the conference.
Shadow home secretary David Davis said Whitehall targets were "stopping the police from doing what the public want them to do".
He added: "Conservatives would free the police from Labour's red tape so they can be deployed onto our streets - where the public want them."
Some of those "offences" do remind me of a certain comedy sketch of a Monty Python type
How we laughed then at the "absurd" .. back when we lived on Mars
BBC said:
Police condemn 'target culture'
The Police Federation says 'target culture' stops officers doing their job
Frontline police officers are calling for an end to the "target-driven culture" they say is forcing them to make arrests for petty offences.
The Police Federation of England and Wales says government targets lead to "ludicrous" decisions such as arresting a child for throwing a cucumber slice.
It also warns that detectives are being diverted from serious cases to deal with trivial crimes.
The federation will discuss the issue at its annual conference later.
At the conference in Blackpool, police will debate whether judging officers purely on numbers of arrests, cautions or on-the-spot fines is the best way to assess success.
Dossier published
The federation, which represents 130,000 rank-and-file officers, has published a dossier of "ludicrous" cases it claims are the result of Home Office targets.
The cases include:
A man from Cheshire who was cautioned for being "found in possession of an egg with intent to throw"
A child in Kent who was arrested after removing a slice of cucumber from a sandwich and throwing it at another youngster
A West Midlands woman arrested on her wedding day for criminal damage after her foot slipped on her accelerator pedal and her vehicle damaged a car park barrier
Understandably, when the public hears about this they ask 'What the hell is going on?'
Police Federation spokesman
A child from Kent who was arrested for throwing cream buns at a bus
A 70-year-old Cheshire pensioner who was arrested for criminal damage after cutting back a neighbour's conifer trees
An officer in the West Midlands who was told to caution a man for throwing a glass of water over his girlfriend
Two children from Manchester who were arrested for being in possession of a plastic toy pistol
A spokesman for the federation said such cases were a result of officers being "so busy chasing targets and securing ticks in boxes".
As a result, he said, officers were distancing themselves from middle England.
The list of compiled cases showed incidents where officers had been "under such pressure to deliver it has resulted in an arrest or caution when even the officer themselves thinks it is ludicrous", he said.
"Understandably, when the public hears about this they ask 'What the hell is going on?'."
'Talking to'
Federation chairman Jan Berry said some officers were considering leaving the service over the issue because it was "not the job they signed up to do".
She added: "Just talking to people and giving them a few words of advice cannot be counted as easily as a ticket can be.
"But sometimes it is just as effective as taking someone to court."
Mrs Berry added that the issue would be raised with Home Secretary John Reid later in the week when he attends the conference.
Shadow home secretary David Davis said Whitehall targets were "stopping the police from doing what the public want them to do".
He added: "Conservatives would free the police from Labour's red tape so they can be deployed onto our streets - where the public want them."
Some of those "offences" do remind me of a certain comedy sketch of a Monty Python type
How we laughed then at the "absurd" .. back when we lived on Mars
This raises the question of why are the police making such ill-informed decisions in such cases? Is it really pressure from target watchers or is it simply they think the arrest makes easy work? We need to worry about the sanity of the chief constables if they are translating detection targets into arresting children with cucumber slices. There's plenty of crime around that would add to the figures just as well, crimes that we would all be in favour of them detecting, but they seem to have taken this target issue and used it as an excuse for crap policing.
I don't agree with the politicians too often, but I do on this one.
I don't agree with the politicians too often, but I do on this one.
cpn jack spanner said:
Worst. Excuse. Ever!
It seems a bit like the Germans saying they HAD to kill lots of Polish because they ran out of Jews. They make these sort of arrests because some of them get off on it! In this country nobody is forced to do anything they don't want to - simple fact.
It seems a bit like the Germans saying they HAD to kill lots of Polish because they ran out of Jews. They make these sort of arrests because some of them get off on it! In this country nobody is forced to do anything they don't want to - simple fact.
Yep. Almost nobody accepts that they have a choice and that they can take responsible for those choices.
There's always someone or something else to blame for their actions.
NCC1701 said:
Yet if police forces are measured by targets then you have to expect those targets to steer force policy which in turn will affect an officer's level of discretion.
The alternative is that the force disregards the targets and is then seen as a failing force.
The alternative is that the force disregards the targets and is then seen as a failing force.
Another alternative is to have targets based on outcomes rather than on detection. If there is low crime on a beat then target achieved. Making detection the target virtually guarantees stupidity in booking kids for throwing cucumber slices etc.
The BIB have been given targets and it looks as if they've found loopholes in order to meet and or exceed them. If the BIB do not like the targets for whatever reason, would it not be better to challenge the stupidity or otherwise of the targets themselves, rather than alienate the public by appearing to gleefully carry out absurd charges on minor misdeamenours while real crime gets worse? They're making themselves look stupid / control freaky / big brotheresque as well as the government.
NCC1701 said:
Yet if police forces are measured by targets then you have to expect those targets to steer force policy which in turn will affect an officer's level of discretion.
The alternative is that the force disregards the targets and is then seen as a failing force.
The alternative is that the force disregards the targets and is then seen as a failing force.
When the Government decides what the target crimes should be it presumably bases it's decision on stats produced by each Force. Assuming no Political Engineering is taking place. Surely each Force will have its own unique crime stats, Rural versus City Forces will differ in what crimes they target if left to their own devices.
I would have thought there are no one-size-fits-all targets, unless it's for political exploitation.
If the government released the reins I'm sure Chief Constables and BiB's would view their own targets with more entusiasm than the generic "flavour of the month" targets thrust upon them by the politically motivated Ministers.
The Force could not be seen as a Failing Force if it got to grips with it's OWN identified crimes/patterns. The Police Forces employed Crime Analysts in order to target crime hotspots and direct police resources accordingly. So aren't the CC's using their diminishing resources on their home produced crime.
If the drive is to reduce Burglaries and a particular Force doesn't have a particularly high number of active burglars on their patch then they are better off tackling the crime relevent to their communities surely, or is that too simple a concept.
Edited by XMG5 on Wednesday 16th May 14:55
lostusernamedamn said:
The BIB have been given targets and it looks as if they've found loopholes in order to meet and or exceed them. If the BIB do not like the targets for whatever reason, would it not be better to challenge the stupidity or otherwise of the targets themselves, rather than alienate the public by appearing to gleefully carry out absurd charges on minor misdeamenours while real crime gets worse? They're making themselves look stupid / control freaky / big brotheresque as well as the government.
What he said.
cpn jack spanner said:
Worst. Excuse. Ever!
It seems a bit like the Germans saying they HAD to kill lots of Polish because they ran out of Jews. They make these sort of arrests because some of them get off on it! In this country nobody is forced to do anything they don't want to - simple fact.
Where have you been? There are many instances of people being forced - by whatever coercion - to do things they don't want to. In the case of the police, it's bonus and promotion related. If you love being a police officer, you have to toe the (thin*, blue) line - Streaky It seems a bit like the Germans saying they HAD to kill lots of Polish because they ran out of Jews. They make these sort of arrests because some of them get off on it! In this country nobody is forced to do anything they don't want to - simple fact.
* Thinner than it used to be outside a police station ... if you can find one open - S
Greater Manchester police 'arrest' a dummy of Lara Croft because she is holding a gun. Hilarious! I suppose it is another one toward the target.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/ma
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/ma
Edited by technobob on Wednesday 16th May 22:57
Edited by technobob on Wednesday 16th May 22:57
nobleguy said:
lostusernamedamn said:
The BIB have been given targets and it looks as if they've found loopholes in order to meet and or exceed them. If the BIB do not like the targets for whatever reason, would it not be better to challenge the stupidity or otherwise of the targets themselves, rather than alienate the public by appearing to gleefully carry out absurd charges on minor misdeamenours while real crime gets worse? They're making themselves look stupid / control freaky / big brotheresque as well as the government.
What he said.
Lets be honest there are a handfull of silly examples (based on one of line evidence) compared to god knows how many arrests, is that a basis on which to
NCC1701 said:
nobleguy said:
lostusernamedamn said:
The BIB have been given targets and it looks as if they've found loopholes in order to meet and or exceed them. If the BIB do not like the targets for whatever reason, would it not be better to challenge the stupidity or otherwise of the targets themselves, rather than alienate the public by appearing to gleefully carry out absurd charges on minor misdeamenours while real crime gets worse? They're making themselves look stupid / control freaky / big brotheresque as well as the government.
What he said.
Lets be honest there are a handfull of silly examples (based on one of line evidence) compared to god knows how many arrests, is that a basis on which to
Well, looking at the various Police blogs, I would say most of them agree with the point. And they have more to go on than a 'handfull of silly examples'.
s2art said:
NCC1701 said:
nobleguy said:
lostusernamedamn said:
The BIB have been given targets and it looks as if they've found loopholes in order to meet and or exceed them. If the BIB do not like the targets for whatever reason, would it not be better to challenge the stupidity or otherwise of the targets themselves, rather than alienate the public by appearing to gleefully carry out absurd charges on minor misdeamenours while real crime gets worse? They're making themselves look stupid / control freaky / big brotheresque as well as the government.
What he said.
Lets be honest there are a handfull of silly examples (based on one of line evidence) compared to god knows how many arrests, is that a basis on which to
Well, looking at the various Police blogs, I would say most of them agree with the point. And they have more to go on than a 'handfull of silly examples'.
Introduce them then please
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