Highways Agency (again)
Discussion
Who decides when and how many lanes to cone off- the HATO or the control room?
Absolute Buffoonery on the M25 this evening:
Anticlock heading fom the A30 towards the M3. Truck sitting on the very wide hard shoulder with what appeared to be both o/s tractor wheels flat. So what gets coned off? TWO lanes which were effectively the lead in lanes for the M3 slip. Considering that this happened at 5pm it`s hardly suprising that absolute chaos ensued.
And then a bit further round the towards Gatwick I saw that a clever HATO had dragged an RTA onto the hard shoulder on it`s roof! Brilliant! How is the recovery truck going to pick that up then? It was only a tiny Eurobox and four blokes could easily have flipped it over first. Or used the towrope in the Mitsubishi Showoff and had it over in seconds.
Far, far, more trouble than they are worth.
Absolute Buffoonery on the M25 this evening:
Anticlock heading fom the A30 towards the M3. Truck sitting on the very wide hard shoulder with what appeared to be both o/s tractor wheels flat. So what gets coned off? TWO lanes which were effectively the lead in lanes for the M3 slip. Considering that this happened at 5pm it`s hardly suprising that absolute chaos ensued.
And then a bit further round the towards Gatwick I saw that a clever HATO had dragged an RTA onto the hard shoulder on it`s roof! Brilliant! How is the recovery truck going to pick that up then? It was only a tiny Eurobox and four blokes could easily have flipped it over first. Or used the towrope in the Mitsubishi Showoff and had it over in seconds.
Far, far, more trouble than they are worth.
tps said:
Would you say the same though if the police had done it this way.I dont think its fair that people keep getting told not to bib bash on here but these guys/girls can get slated all you want.
But they wouldnt have done it that way, would they? As far as I can tell, your traffic chap/ess will assess the situation, and ensure its safe while keeping traffic flow in mind, whereas your HATO will pull the 13kg HSA manual out of the boot, and find the appropriate page...
tps said:
Would you say the same though if the police had done it this way.I dont think its fair that people keep getting told not to bib bash on here but these guys/girls can get slated all you want.
Bib would undoubtedly have left the heavy where it was (perfectly safe, wide hard shoulder here) until AFTER the rush hour and then coned off a lane if necessary.
tps said:
Would you say the same though if the police had done it this way.I dont think its fair that people keep getting told not to bib bash on here but these guys/girls can get slated all you want.
The big difference is that trafpol do a worthwhile job and hence command my respect. For my money (and remember it IS my money), the Highways Agency do not. Another example - earlier yesterday while travelling clockwise in heavy traffic, all the matrix signs were showing 60mph limit except for one which displayed a "Caution Congestion" sign and a 40mph limit. What was causing the congestion? - vehicles braking in order to be travelling at 40 mph as they passed the sign.
Christ knows how we managed for years with only the the public, trafpol and common sense to ensure that we all got where we were going.
The HA is truly Bliars Legacy - all show, minor benefit.
towie said:
The big difference is that trafpol do a worthwhile job and hence command my respect. For my money (and remember it IS my money), the Highways Agency do not. Another example - earlier yesterday while travelling clockwise in heavy traffic, all the matrix signs were showing 60mph limit except for one which displayed a "Caution Congestion" sign and a 40mph limit. What was causing the congestion? - vehicles braking in order to be travelling at 40 mph as they passed the sign.
Christ knows how we managed for years with only the the public, trafpol and common sense to ensure that we all got where we were going.
So is this not midas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorway
How are they to blame.
Edited by tps on Wednesday 16th May 02:02
towie said:
Absolute Buffoonery on the M25 this evening
Anticlock heading fom the A30 towards the M3. Truck sitting on the very wide hard shoulder with what appeared to be both o/s tractor wheels flat. So what gets coned off? TWO lanes which were effectively the lead in lanes for the M3 slip. Considering that this happened at 5pm it`s hardly suprising that absolute chaos ensued.
And then a bit further round the towards Gatwick I saw that a clever HATO had dragged an RTA onto the hard shoulder on it`s roof! Brilliant! How is the recovery truck going to pick that up then? It was only a tiny Eurobox and four blokes could easily have flipped it over first. Or used the towrope in the Mitsubishi Showoff and had it over in seconds.
Did you see them drag the car to the hardshoulder or was it possible that the car ended up there after crashing and was not moved.
In your first post you complain they close the road or cause an obstruction now your complaining they dragged a car to the hardshoulder to get the road running quicker than closing it and messing about trying to get it on its wheels.
tps said:
Who operates Midas? - The Highways Agency!
tps said:
Did you see them drag the car to the hardshoulder or was it possible that the car ended up there after crashing and was not moved.
Possible, but unlikely, especially as the radio was originally reporting that three lanes were blocked.
tps said:
messing about trying to get it on its wheels.
Given the delays caused by the RTC, a few extra minutes would hardly have madea difference.
Not bib bashing here, but they arent perfect either. I use the A34 every day and its not unknown for cars to break down. There was one yesterday, broken down but pulled right off the carriageway onto the grass shoulder. Very considerate of him allowing the traffic to continue flowing freely. Only it wasnt as bib had turned up and parked on the inside line, blues flashing , and blocked it. Cue huge rush hour traffic jam. Now I know that maybe there was a ditch or something (a reasonable excuse I would guess) BUT I have seen this at least 4 times before on the A34. Car off the carriageway, driver sitting up the grass bank by the side of the road , BiB close the inside lane. Health and safety gone mad ?
Can't avoid commenting on this.
As seen form other repeated threads there are a few of us, Towie and myself being one who are not fans of the HATO concept for a whole host of reasons.
Can't / won't comment on the actual incidents as no information other than what Towie has posted.
Re rolling vehicle back onto wheels, maybe rules have changed after the incident where somebody was squashed trying to do exactly that. Dragging a caravan on its side to the hard shoulder was something I saw done years and years back.
Re Highways Agency. Again I'm really not happy about how our taxes are being spent by the organisation. As on other thread I pointed out that basing on latest costs publicly declared each HATO unit (ie double crewed 4x4) costs ~400k per year to put out there. That seems a lot of money for what they do, what police used to do part time, using their own command structure, etc etc.
As towie says "Bliar's legacy, all show, minor benefit" to which I'd add "huge costs and cost / benefit analysis a disaster"
Then you only have to look at ATM on the M42 to be able to decide on that. Somebody should be sacked for that, full stop, rule off, end of.
Highways agency are lucky that they are not under the same sort of scrutiny from the media like the CSA and the Revenue over the tax credits fiasco and so on. I've only ever seen the HA boss perform once (if you'll pardon the expression, you know what I mean) and the world 'clown' springs to mind.
FiF
As seen form other repeated threads there are a few of us, Towie and myself being one who are not fans of the HATO concept for a whole host of reasons.
Can't / won't comment on the actual incidents as no information other than what Towie has posted.
Re rolling vehicle back onto wheels, maybe rules have changed after the incident where somebody was squashed trying to do exactly that. Dragging a caravan on its side to the hard shoulder was something I saw done years and years back.
Re Highways Agency. Again I'm really not happy about how our taxes are being spent by the organisation. As on other thread I pointed out that basing on latest costs publicly declared each HATO unit (ie double crewed 4x4) costs ~400k per year to put out there. That seems a lot of money for what they do, what police used to do part time, using their own command structure, etc etc.
As towie says "Bliar's legacy, all show, minor benefit" to which I'd add "huge costs and cost / benefit analysis a disaster"
Then you only have to look at ATM on the M42 to be able to decide on that. Somebody should be sacked for that, full stop, rule off, end of.
Highways agency are lucky that they are not under the same sort of scrutiny from the media like the CSA and the Revenue over the tax credits fiasco and so on. I've only ever seen the HA boss perform once (if you'll pardon the expression, you know what I mean) and the world 'clown' springs to mind.
FiF
towie said:
tps said:
Did you see them drag the car to the hardshoulder or was it possible that the car ended up there after crashing and was not moved.
Possible, but unlikely, especially as the radio was originally reporting that three lanes were blocked.
tps said:
messing about trying to get it on its wheels.
Given the delays caused by the RTC, a few extra minutes would hardly have madea difference.
And then a bit further round the towards Gatwick I saw that a clever HATO had dragged an RTA onto the hard shoulder on it`s roof! Brilliant! How is the recovery truck going to pick that up then?
So you actually saw nothing,you assumed.
Possible, but unlikely, especially as the radio was originally reporting that three lanes were blocked.
It was on the radio that all lanes were blocked...this does not mean by that car...again we are assuming here.
Given the delays caused by the RTC, a few extra minutes would hardly have madea difference.
The quicker the police or hatos clear the road the quicker it can run again.
towie said:
Anticlock heading fom the A30 towards the M3. Truck sitting on the very wide hard shoulder with what appeared to be both o/s tractor wheels flat. So what gets coned off? TWO lanes which were effectively the lead in lanes for the M3 slip. Considering that this happened at 5pm it`s hardly suprising that absolute chaos ensued.
At that time no lanes should have been closed. Assuming it's as you say, it was a poor decision. Lane closures are always closley scrutinized - the idea is not to slow the network down.
towie said:
And then a bit further round the towards Gatwick I saw that a clever HATO had dragged an RTA onto the hard shoulder on it`s roof! Brilliant! How is the recovery truck going to pick that up then? It was only a tiny Eurobox and four blokes could easily have flipped it over first. Or used the towrope in the Mitsubishi Showoff and had it over in seconds.
With a Hiab? How would the recovery have picked it up from the middle of the motorway? I've seen proper recovery blokes drag a car on it's roof onto the flatbed with the winch too.
Where were you getting these four blokes from - the HATO is double crewed. And have you not heard about health & safety? You don't say the state of the vehicle, but by turning it back over, you could be dumping all sorts of fluids that would then need clearing up.....more delay.
Oh, and I've seen BiB drag stuff off on the roof - so it must be OK then.
towie said:
tps said:
Who operates Midas? - The Highways Agency!
It's automatic, based on vehicle movement.........
Vaux said:
towie said:
tps said:
Who operates Midas? - The Highways Agency!
It's automatic, based on vehicle movement.........
Either you don't understand what actually happens down on the ground when these limits get set automatically by the computer, or maybe you don't want to understand.
It's one or the other.
And just who exactly is the owner and operator of the "automatic based on vehicle movement system" pray?
Well bugger me sideways over a barrel against the wash house wall, it's owned and operated by the Highways Agency.
Flat in Fifth said:
and with that comment you lose all credibility.
You can't loose what you never had!
Flat in Fifth said:
Either you don't understand what actually happens down on the ground when these limits get set automatically by the computer, or maybe you don't want to understand.
Is there some Machiavellian plot going on I don't know about? All I know is what I read - there are loops in the road surface that sense when vehicles are moving or not - a big computer then decides what advisory speed limits and signs to set.....
(I believe the signs can be overridden by human operators in cases where there would be a false reading - workmen parked in lanes/slip roads).
"The full functionality of MIDAS; i.e. its ability to determine signal settings using congestion monitoring and queue protection algorithms has been implemented in the Agency model SISTM. Additional SISTM outputs were introduced to represent vehicle emissions, fuel consumption, and driver work-load, thus reflecting the wider range of parameters to be considered under the Government's New Approach to Appraisal."
Flat in Fifth said:
And just who exactly is the owner and operator of the "automatic based on vehicle movement system" pray?
Well bugger me sideways over a barrel against the wash house wall, it's owned and operated by the Highways Agency.
Well bugger me sideways over a barrel against the wash house wall, it's owned and operated by the Highways Agency.
Err, of course it is. I rather had the impression that some people think there is an HA person sitting there causing mayhem by randomly setting signs! Even better now, some dozy HATO driving around doing it......
Edited by Vaux on Thursday 17th May 07:45
Flat in Fifth said:
Vaux said:
towie said:
tps said:
Who operates Midas? - The Highways Agency!
It's automatic, based on vehicle movement.........
Either you don't understand what actually happens down on the ground when these limits get set automatically by the computer, or maybe you don't want to understand.
It's one or the other.
And just who exactly is the owner and operator of the "automatic based on vehicle movement system" pray?
Well bugger me sideways over a barrel against the wash house wall, it's owned and operated by the Highways Agency.
MIDAS is very automatic. Manual settings will only override if they are set with quite high priorities. Unfortunately for the armchair experts, the numbers demonstrate that MIDAS does improve flow and reduce accidents.
However, it should be pointed out that the main aim of MIDAS is not to improve flow but to reduce the incidence of people driving into the back of queues of traffic.
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