Speeding Police cars
Discussion
Sorry to dig this up again, seeing as Carzee closed the similar topic this morning, but I missed my chance to comment.
This incident happened to me about twenty years ago, and I have no intention of doing anything like it again, as I am somewhat older and wiser.
I joined the A1 at Haddington, heading west towards Edinburgh. In those days, it was a 3 lane road, with a lane for each direction, and a centre lane for overtaking.
There was a short slip road to join the main road, and looking in my wing mirror I saw a white Scorpio approaching quite quickly, so I gave way to it and joined the road behind it. It was fairly shifting, and I eventually caught up with it doing, well let's just say more than the NSL. Of course being in my early twenties, overtaking everything was what it was all about, no matter what the speed, but this car was being driven in exactly the same manner in whiuch I would, never getting too close to the car in front. leaving lots of acceleration room, starting an overtaking manoever before the oncoming car has passed etc.
In that light, I decided to follow him rather than attempt a real hail mary overtake. I guess I was about 50m behind him for most of the 9 miles that I followed, sometimes in excess of 100 mph.
As we were approaching the Tranent roundabout, where the road is too narrow for overtaking safely, we both slowed right down, and I had more time to look at what was in front of me. White Scorpio, check. No badges, model type, GL, GLS Ghia or whatever, check. No engine size badge, check. The only Scorpios I knew like that were unmarked Traffic Cops. I now looked more closely at the driver and passenger. Short hair, white shirts, Oh sh*t, black epaulets, oh fcuk, black ties, how could I be so blind, little VHF ariel on the wing.
He went straight on towards Edinburgh, I turned right into Prestonpans (not where I wanted to go, but needs must).
My point is, where did I stand legally, had he pulled me. He definitely did NOT have a siren going, or his lights on, blue, main beam, side lights whatever. My conlusion that he was not on a call is reasonably sound, so he was therefore as guilty of speeding as I was. Wasn't he? Is he entitled to drive at such speeds without alerting the public?
When I was young and stupid, with an "I'm better than anyone at driving" attitude, I simply put it down to experience, thankful that I seemed to have got away with it. I never heard a thing from Lothian and Borders finest. The point is, these guys must have know I was there. A look in the mirror would have done that. I don't believe for a minute that they were fakes, either.
Anyone had any similar experiences? What is Madcop's opinion?
>>> Edited by Mad Jock on Thursday 15th May 21:14
This incident happened to me about twenty years ago, and I have no intention of doing anything like it again, as I am somewhat older and wiser.
I joined the A1 at Haddington, heading west towards Edinburgh. In those days, it was a 3 lane road, with a lane for each direction, and a centre lane for overtaking.
There was a short slip road to join the main road, and looking in my wing mirror I saw a white Scorpio approaching quite quickly, so I gave way to it and joined the road behind it. It was fairly shifting, and I eventually caught up with it doing, well let's just say more than the NSL. Of course being in my early twenties, overtaking everything was what it was all about, no matter what the speed, but this car was being driven in exactly the same manner in whiuch I would, never getting too close to the car in front. leaving lots of acceleration room, starting an overtaking manoever before the oncoming car has passed etc.
In that light, I decided to follow him rather than attempt a real hail mary overtake. I guess I was about 50m behind him for most of the 9 miles that I followed, sometimes in excess of 100 mph.
As we were approaching the Tranent roundabout, where the road is too narrow for overtaking safely, we both slowed right down, and I had more time to look at what was in front of me. White Scorpio, check. No badges, model type, GL, GLS Ghia or whatever, check. No engine size badge, check. The only Scorpios I knew like that were unmarked Traffic Cops. I now looked more closely at the driver and passenger. Short hair, white shirts, Oh sh*t, black epaulets, oh fcuk, black ties, how could I be so blind, little VHF ariel on the wing.
He went straight on towards Edinburgh, I turned right into Prestonpans (not where I wanted to go, but needs must).
My point is, where did I stand legally, had he pulled me. He definitely did NOT have a siren going, or his lights on, blue, main beam, side lights whatever. My conlusion that he was not on a call is reasonably sound, so he was therefore as guilty of speeding as I was. Wasn't he? Is he entitled to drive at such speeds without alerting the public?
When I was young and stupid, with an "I'm better than anyone at driving" attitude, I simply put it down to experience, thankful that I seemed to have got away with it. I never heard a thing from Lothian and Borders finest. The point is, these guys must have know I was there. A look in the mirror would have done that. I don't believe for a minute that they were fakes, either.
Anyone had any similar experiences? What is Madcop's opinion?
>>> Edited by Mad Jock on Thursday 15th May 21:14
Mad Jock,
Had a similar situation. Well worse on my part anyway.
Was doing about 85 odd on a stretch of M4 motorway, Port Talbot, S. Wales driving east. 3 lanes, white Mondeo on the outside lane, 1 car on the inside lane, me in the middle. At the speed I was going I would've undertaken the Mondeo in the outside lane fairly quickly. Anyway, so I move into the outside lane (still no cars for miles in the middle lane), behind the Mondeo...nothing happens...I sit there and wait for 10 seconds...(that's long!) and I was not tailgating. Right, so I undertake him. Look to my right, and these guys (3 of them in white shirts - I didn't have a clue at that point) are making gestures at me etc.! I keep in the middle line, he moves back in middle lane, flashes his head lights all the time and starts speeding up again as well. And I'm thinking:"bloody heck, I don't need this road race sh*t...", so I try to get rid of them (reaching speeds of 110mph+)...next thing, a marked speeding patrol car joins the M4. So I'm slowing right down, middle lane, doing 70 something. Patrol car comes up behind me, lights flashing! Get pulled over, and right in front of me the flippin' white Mondeo pulls over onto the hard shoulder! And behind the speeding patrol car, another unmarked dark blue V70 pulls over. And I'm absolutely STUNNED when a copper comes out of this white Mondeo in front of me.
This guy starts talking to me about dangerous driving, yakyakyak, and how I'm gonna get a huge ban on my license etc.
Finally, the other coppers of the speeding patrol car take over, I get in the back with them, they only ask me to produce my docs. And that was it!
Point being: the guys in the Mondeo were obviously just a bunch of coppers going somewhere in an unmarked car without speed recording device. They were pretty p*ssed off when I undertook them, although they deserved it, and had hoped to catch me by calling in one of their patrol cars. At the end of the day, it's all about whether they could prove I was speeding or not. In this case there was no evidence at all, so I got away with it.
Cheers!
Wim
>> Edited by Wimdows on Thursday 15th May 22:08
Had a similar situation. Well worse on my part anyway.
Was doing about 85 odd on a stretch of M4 motorway, Port Talbot, S. Wales driving east. 3 lanes, white Mondeo on the outside lane, 1 car on the inside lane, me in the middle. At the speed I was going I would've undertaken the Mondeo in the outside lane fairly quickly. Anyway, so I move into the outside lane (still no cars for miles in the middle lane), behind the Mondeo...nothing happens...I sit there and wait for 10 seconds...(that's long!) and I was not tailgating. Right, so I undertake him. Look to my right, and these guys (3 of them in white shirts - I didn't have a clue at that point) are making gestures at me etc.! I keep in the middle line, he moves back in middle lane, flashes his head lights all the time and starts speeding up again as well. And I'm thinking:"bloody heck, I don't need this road race sh*t...", so I try to get rid of them (reaching speeds of 110mph+)...next thing, a marked speeding patrol car joins the M4. So I'm slowing right down, middle lane, doing 70 something. Patrol car comes up behind me, lights flashing! Get pulled over, and right in front of me the flippin' white Mondeo pulls over onto the hard shoulder! And behind the speeding patrol car, another unmarked dark blue V70 pulls over. And I'm absolutely STUNNED when a copper comes out of this white Mondeo in front of me.
This guy starts talking to me about dangerous driving, yakyakyak, and how I'm gonna get a huge ban on my license etc.
Finally, the other coppers of the speeding patrol car take over, I get in the back with them, they only ask me to produce my docs. And that was it!
Point being: the guys in the Mondeo were obviously just a bunch of coppers going somewhere in an unmarked car without speed recording device. They were pretty p*ssed off when I undertook them, although they deserved it, and had hoped to catch me by calling in one of their patrol cars. At the end of the day, it's all about whether they could prove I was speeding or not. In this case there was no evidence at all, so I got away with it.
Cheers!
Wim
>> Edited by Wimdows on Thursday 15th May 22:08
I think the crucial fact was that there was more than 2 coppers on board - could have been anything from driver training to them being late for a meeting I reckon ie more important things to do really.
Had a similar situation couple of years ago - setting off on a long journey, sunny day, top down, shades on cruising about 95 (it's quick for a Midget).
Overtaking a van and a white saloon catches me very rapidly - like 130+mph rapidly! - move over soon as I can while letting off slighty, car pulls alongside and 4 coppers give me the stare treatment, than set off again at warp speed.
Though of the 'new miss' slowed me down for a few miles after...
Cheers, Phil
Had a similar situation couple of years ago - setting off on a long journey, sunny day, top down, shades on cruising about 95 (it's quick for a Midget).
Overtaking a van and a white saloon catches me very rapidly - like 130+mph rapidly! - move over soon as I can while letting off slighty, car pulls alongside and 4 coppers give me the stare treatment, than set off again at warp speed.
Though of the 'new miss' slowed me down for a few miles after...
Cheers, Phil
This incident happened to me about twenty years ago
Yes, but back in those days speed didn't kill. Now that the dispicable lying thieving statistic-distorting manipulative gentlemen who run the country for us have decided that private transport is a Very Bad Thing and speed is the Root Of All Evil, I'm sure you'd get a very different result.
GreenV8S said:
This incident happened to me about twenty years ago
Yes, but back in those days speed didn't kill.
I thought it did, which is why the NSL was introduced, to decrease the chances of you being wiped out on the M1 by some idjit with drum brkes and bad suspension in the 50's/60's/70's
Cos i can't remember when the NSL was introduced, too much information is better than incorrect information !!
My point is, where did I stand legally, had he pulled me. He definitely did NOT have a siren going, or his lights on, blue, main beam, side lights whatever. My conlusion that he was not on a call is reasonably sound, so he was therefore as guilty of speeding as I was. Wasn't he?
>>> Edited by Mad Jock on Thursday 15th May 21:14
No.
www.axalotl.demon.co.uk/transport/FAQ.html#Q23
But obviously now that cars have got disc brakes, ABS, EBD, brake-assist etc. speed is the real killer, whereas years ago when cars were all fitted with powerful drum brakes
Hughesie2 said:
GreenV8S said:
This incident happened to me about twenty years ago
Yes, but back in those days speed didn't kill.
I thought it did, which is why the NSL was introduced, to decrease the chances of you being wiped out on the M1 by some idjit with drum brkes and bad suspension in the 50's/60's/70's
Cos i can't remember when the NSL was introduced, too much information is better than incorrect information !!
it wasn't a problem, which is why we need to be smothered by cameras now. I think that's what Peter's driving at.
Thanks for your succinct reply, Zumbruk, but according to the link that you posted, I still think that they were guilty of speeding. The fact that they slowed down, and made no further attempts to "press on" supports my perception that they were not on a call, therefore cannot be classified as an emergency vehicle at that instant, the absence of sirens or blues and two notwithstanding.
I was advised by a defence lawyer some years ago that in cases like this, I should take the number of the police car, and if stopped, the police officer numbers also, and log the actual time. Preferably get the police officer involved to write verything down in his book, as he has to note the time also. Then as soon as possible, get in touch with the police control room, and enquire about any emergencies involving said vehicle at the time in question.
The difference that has to be made is between following a speeding police car and being followed by one. If you are following a police car that is also exceeding the speed limit, then he has no reason to pull you, unless he is genuinely responding to an emergency. It can therefore be argued that it can't be much of an emergency if he is going to waste time pulling you for speeding.
I can give you a more recent example. When GATSO's were installed on the A1 between Haddington and Berwick upon Tweed, on of the first vehicles caught was the local volunteer fire engine. The driver was a local heating engineer, and he told me that he got done, even though he was responding to an emergency. The difference was that he was on his way back to the station from a fire. He was told that he was therfore NOT an emergency vehicle any more, and could therefore get prosecuted.
I am not for one minute condoning such practises as trying to keep up with police cars. Granted, I did it some years ago, but I'm less inclined to do so now. I just feel that it is a grey area that needs clearing up.
I was advised by a defence lawyer some years ago that in cases like this, I should take the number of the police car, and if stopped, the police officer numbers also, and log the actual time. Preferably get the police officer involved to write verything down in his book, as he has to note the time also. Then as soon as possible, get in touch with the police control room, and enquire about any emergencies involving said vehicle at the time in question.
The difference that has to be made is between following a speeding police car and being followed by one. If you are following a police car that is also exceeding the speed limit, then he has no reason to pull you, unless he is genuinely responding to an emergency. It can therefore be argued that it can't be much of an emergency if he is going to waste time pulling you for speeding.
I can give you a more recent example. When GATSO's were installed on the A1 between Haddington and Berwick upon Tweed, on of the first vehicles caught was the local volunteer fire engine. The driver was a local heating engineer, and he told me that he got done, even though he was responding to an emergency. The difference was that he was on his way back to the station from a fire. He was told that he was therfore NOT an emergency vehicle any more, and could therefore get prosecuted.
I am not for one minute condoning such practises as trying to keep up with police cars. Granted, I did it some years ago, but I'm less inclined to do so now. I just feel that it is a grey area that needs clearing up.
Police are exempt from speed limits if they are using the vehicle for Police purposes That can be anything from attending emergency incidents in marked cars to tailing suspects in surveilence operations in unmarked ones. Just because the bells and lights are not sounding does not mean that the speeding Police car is not on official business.
Many forces use tactical support vehicles which are unmarked and have to get equipment and staff from one area to the location of an ongoing operation. Sometimes use of bells and lights can be more prejudicial to progress than it otherwise would be not to have them on. Sometimes use of large numbers of such vehicles to provide support at major tactical commitments is prejudicial to the operation itself.
Collecting the chief constables golf clubs from the station after inadvertently leaving them there and delivering them to him as he waits on the 'Tee' would not be an excuse for exceeding the limit used for Police purposes.
>> Edited by madcop on Friday 16th May 19:22
Many forces use tactical support vehicles which are unmarked and have to get equipment and staff from one area to the location of an ongoing operation. Sometimes use of bells and lights can be more prejudicial to progress than it otherwise would be not to have them on. Sometimes use of large numbers of such vehicles to provide support at major tactical commitments is prejudicial to the operation itself.
Collecting the chief constables golf clubs from the station after inadvertently leaving them there and delivering them to him as he waits on the 'Tee' would not be an excuse for exceeding the limit used for Police purposes.
>> Edited by madcop on Friday 16th May 19:22
Who cares what speed the police drive at. It's not going to help anyone here. They are paid to drive fast. If we drive fast they fine us and give us points.
I live very near to where Thames valley Police do their training, so cars driving very fast are nothing unusual around here. Also I remember seeing on television when T.V Police were training on public roads, and they were doing 100mph plus down narrow country roads overtaking civilian cars, so nothing surprises me on the roads anymore.
I live very near to where Thames valley Police do their training, so cars driving very fast are nothing unusual around here. Also I remember seeing on television when T.V Police were training on public roads, and they were doing 100mph plus down narrow country roads overtaking civilian cars, so nothing surprises me on the roads anymore.
!However the hassle that resulted from the PACE act and the CPS meant that I had had enough and left the job in 1990 .....didn't come to soon for me! 
I pulled over to let a Police car past, he was flying he took the mini roundabout with far to much speed at one point three of he's wheels were airbourne he he clattered over the island, I'm not sure he did not clit the kerb, 200yars later he had stopa 13 year old escort van, so put us in so much danger could it be something to do with the Thame Valley Police targets they all have to meet, anf of us driving lik that would up for dangerous driving and a retest, so unless Bin Saladen was in that van what is the point...
If someone were to sit on a bridge over a motorway or road legally with a home office approved and calibrated laser speed gun and took the speed of every police car that went past, if they were speeding would there be any way the evidence could be presented so the police officer would get done for speeding? Would they not have to prove that the vehicle was being used for duty every time in court?
If so I have a bit of money and a few boring weekends ahead.....
Normally I wouldnt be so anal but my recent experience with the police has turned me!
If so I have a bit of money and a few boring weekends ahead.....
Normally I wouldnt be so anal but my recent experience with the police has turned me!
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