Discussion
If you hold a valid licence from a country other than the one in which you are banned, then you may drive on that licence in any country other than the one in which you were banned. The limit of authority of the banning authority is the country in which they have jurisdiction.
In fact, if you have a duplicate U.K. licence it is a matter of conjecture as to whether you can drive abroad on it if banned in the UK. After all, the nmagistrates don't say that your licence is removed or cancelled, they say that you are disqualified from driving, which means disqualified in the territory over which they have jurisdiction (i.e. the U.K.). In such a case it's the insurance which could be the problem as you are required to: ".... hold, or have held and not be disqualified from holding, a driving licence for the class of vehicle covered" (or words to that effect).
In fact, if you have a duplicate U.K. licence it is a matter of conjecture as to whether you can drive abroad on it if banned in the UK. After all, the nmagistrates don't say that your licence is removed or cancelled, they say that you are disqualified from driving, which means disqualified in the territory over which they have jurisdiction (i.e. the U.K.). In such a case it's the insurance which could be the problem as you are required to: ".... hold, or have held and not be disqualified from holding, a driving licence for the class of vehicle covered" (or words to that effect).
I think you will find Peter that any duplicate Licence issued only becomes 'valid' from date of issue to when first Licence normally expired.
In the event of disqualification it would be the duplicate Licence that would be surrended as the 'old' one would be expired.
See Section 99 Road Traffic Act 1988
Also see Section 103 RTA 88 - offence of obtaining a Licence whilst disqualified.
Also section 174 RTA 88 - making false statement to obtain Driving Licence.....
...all weighty offences.
Veritable hornets nest...
dvd
In the event of disqualification it would be the duplicate Licence that would be surrended as the 'old' one would be expired.
See Section 99 Road Traffic Act 1988
Also see Section 103 RTA 88 - offence of obtaining a Licence whilst disqualified.
Also section 174 RTA 88 - making false statement to obtain Driving Licence.....
...all weighty offences.
Veritable hornets nest...
dvd
neither of these RTA's would seem to apply to me as my other license is not a duplicate of my british license. I already have this license so would not be making any false statements to obtain a license or obtaining a license whilst disqualified. You are correct about the hornets nest though. It's all a game based on the prosecutors only giving you the info that they are required to and using & interpreting it all to their advantage. It's the little hidden things that average joe doesn't know about that come back and sting you in the arse !!!!
Dwight VanDriver said:
I think you will find Peter that any duplicate Licence issued only becomes 'valid' from date of issue to when first Licence normally expired.
In the event of disqualification it would be the duplicate Licence that would be surrended as the 'old' one would be expired.
See Section 99 Road Traffic Act 1988
Also see Section 103 RTA 88 - offence of obtaining a Licence whilst disqualified.
Also section 174 RTA 88 - making false statement to obtain Driving Licence.....
...all weighty offences.
Veritable hornets nest...
dvd
I take your point here Dwight, but what I meant was that, if like so many of us one has a duplicate licence, even though the duplicate may have been surrendered due to disqual in the UK, you still have one which may well be considered valid abroad, since the disqual can only apply in the UK. The only issue could be that if you use your own vehicle, then your insurance only covers you if you 'hold, or have held and are not disqual from holding' a licence. In the event of disqualification it would be the duplicate Licence that would be surrended as the 'old' one would be expired.
See Section 99 Road Traffic Act 1988
Also see Section 103 RTA 88 - offence of obtaining a Licence whilst disqualified.
Also section 174 RTA 88 - making false statement to obtain Driving Licence.....
...all weighty offences.
Veritable hornets nest...
dvd
I had a 'spare' licence for many years as I used to spend around 90+ days a year abroad on business and if I had been unfortunate enough to have to travel abroad and rent a car whilst my licence was having points added to it, then I would have had a huge problem with my business and the financial loss could have been enormous. Luckily it never happened as I received 3 points in 1974, before my extensive travelling began, and the next lot of speeding points (my last lot, in fact), I got in 1988 which was after my extensive travelling days were over.
In the 70's a licence came back very quickly from DVLA, unlike now when there are so many thousands having the points added that it can, I understand, take some time. Thus a spare (duplicate) licence is a sensible precaution for the business traveller.
This current obsession with adding meaningless points to licences, meaningless in terms of defining good drivers from bad, has caused unexpected side effects for regular travellers. I think if I had to travel now as much as I used to then I would take a driving test in the USA and have an American licence to use everywhere except here 'just-in-case'. I remember Stirling Moss was once banned for a month in 1961 I think, but he was able to continue to race since, although his comp. licence required him to hold a valid road driving licence, it didn't specify which country that road licence had to be from, and he held both UK and USA licences.
Edited by Cooperman on Monday 4th June 15:24
So hypothetically speaking.
Is there actually any mileage in me taking a driving test in a foreign land, basing on an address in that land, assume Scandinavian country beginning with S for purposes of argument.
So then having two legitimate licences how could that work to my benefit? I can see the possible benefit of having a second non EC licence, eg USA as cooperman has suggested. How much benefit I'm not that sure.
You see I'm thinking that if one were stopped in a UK registered car, despite the best efforts of DVLA to have a thoroughly stuffed and useless database the chances are that plod would figure out that the car registered and insured by Mr Duncan Disorderly of 23 Letsby Avenue, also coincided with the UK licence of a Mr Duncan Disorderly of well shiver me timbers 23 Letsby Avenue again. At which point if foreign licence presented then can open worms all over place.
Surely, Shirley,
the only way this can work is if the whole caboodle is registered overseas, ie car registered, insured, driving licence held in another country.
Say you spent most of your time between two places. Place A you have vehicle registered, licence etc in Place B and vice versa. Bring the vehicles over into their home country for long enough to tax test etc and ensure have info eg ferry tickets.
Or maybe one vehicle registered in place C that you hardly ever visit, or maybe just long enough to qualify for temporary imports and free movement of goods etc and have proof with ferry tickets etc?
Is the real main benefit that you would just simply be left alone more often; i.e. more chance of, say, parking tickets sent into round filing cabinet for NFA. But when the smelly stuff really did have an interface with electrically powered air impeller the advantage would be more theoretical than practical.
Realise all this is neutralised when EU wide sentencing comes into effect.
Is there actually any mileage in me taking a driving test in a foreign land, basing on an address in that land, assume Scandinavian country beginning with S for purposes of argument.
So then having two legitimate licences how could that work to my benefit? I can see the possible benefit of having a second non EC licence, eg USA as cooperman has suggested. How much benefit I'm not that sure.
You see I'm thinking that if one were stopped in a UK registered car, despite the best efforts of DVLA to have a thoroughly stuffed and useless database the chances are that plod would figure out that the car registered and insured by Mr Duncan Disorderly of 23 Letsby Avenue, also coincided with the UK licence of a Mr Duncan Disorderly of well shiver me timbers 23 Letsby Avenue again. At which point if foreign licence presented then can open worms all over place.
Surely, Shirley,
the only way this can work is if the whole caboodle is registered overseas, ie car registered, insured, driving licence held in another country. Say you spent most of your time between two places. Place A you have vehicle registered, licence etc in Place B and vice versa. Bring the vehicles over into their home country for long enough to tax test etc and ensure have info eg ferry tickets.
Or maybe one vehicle registered in place C that you hardly ever visit, or maybe just long enough to qualify for temporary imports and free movement of goods etc and have proof with ferry tickets etc?
Is the real main benefit that you would just simply be left alone more often; i.e. more chance of, say, parking tickets sent into round filing cabinet for NFA. But when the smelly stuff really did have an interface with electrically powered air impeller the advantage would be more theoretical than practical.
Realise all this is neutralised when EU wide sentencing comes into effect.
This was my line of thought. One question regarding insurance. If your vehicle is kept on the road and you get disqualified and notify your insurance company, do they cancel your insurance ? If so, your are then breaking another law by having said vehicle on the road without insurance even though you aren't driving it. What then, Sell the vehicle ???
curr2633 said:
This was my line of thought. One question regarding insurance. If your vehicle is kept on the road and you get disqualified and notify your insurance company, do they cancel your insurance ? If so, your are then breaking another law by having said vehicle on the road without insurance even though you aren't driving it. What then, Sell the vehicle ???
If you can't find anywhere offroad to keep it, then you can get someone else to insure it.curr2633 said:
This was my line of thought. One question regarding insurance. If your vehicle is kept on the road and you get disqualified and notify your insurance company, do they cancel your insurance ? If so, your are then breaking another law by having said vehicle on the road without insurance even though you aren't driving it. What then, Sell the vehicle ???
No, your insurance company can't simply cancel your insurance should you be disqual, as it's a civil contract to provide a service, not connected with road traffic in terms of the contractual terms. From a RT regs situation the law just says that a vehicle must have insurance against 3rd party risks in order to be legally on the road. If you are disqual, then your policy is still valid, it's just that you can't actually drive it. Another named driver is still fully legal to drive it and so are you once the disqual period is over, so long as you've informed the insurer.Hi FiF, what I was thinking was that if you have an overseas address, then you come to the UK to live part of the time, there is nothing stopping you from being the keeper of a UK registered car. Indeed, if you spend, say, 4 months of the year in the UK, give or-take a month or so either way, you may well want to leave a car here and if it is to stay in the UK, taxed and insured, you can't have your main overseas address as the keeper's. My son is about to have this problem. He's moving to France to live in an apartment in the Alps which he's just bought. However, the nature of his work as a design engineer in motorsport means that he will be working some time in the UK, some in germany and some, maybe, in Italy. He intends to leave a car here at my home, with himself as registered keeper and taxer/insurer, but he will be surrendering his UK licence for a French one and, if necessary, taking a French test in time. He will, therefore, exactly match your scenario of a UK registered car, in his name, driven by an Englishman on a French Licence in England. What other option does he have? It's just part of the EU freedom of business, trade and movement of assets. The DVLA won't accept a keeper with an address in France, the French say that if he resides there he must have a French licence, and it is not permissable to have two driving licences within the EU. I suppose I could be the keeper, but why should I just because it's parked at my house? If he gets any NiP's at my address I'll just send them on to him in France and he'll ignore them I expect. It's nowt to do with me.
The problem is that the pettiness with points for very minor offences can't cope with internationalism within Europe. Maybe that's a good thing.
The problem is that the pettiness with points for very minor offences can't cope with internationalism within Europe. Maybe that's a good thing.
Cooperman said:
it is not permissable to have two driving licences within the EU.
I've been looking for that, and it is true that when you look at the relevant countries they all seem to talk about exchange of licence, but not been able to find the rule which says that one is not so permitted. However I also recall vonhosen saying that the only way to have two licences was to take two tests.It's clear that for incomers into UK one can only apply for a UK provisional and test if one has been normally resident in UK for 185 days in the last year. One's EU licence is returned with the provisional, but the EU licence must be surrendered to get the full licence.
I don't see the same rules elsewhere, there has to be a catch somewhere.
On the other hand, considering the number of East European vehicles I see trundling around and parked up at the same spot for the last couple of years in both countries I am thinking of, and the same with UK registered vehicles in Spain, I reckon stuff all is enforced in practice.
Cooperman said:
If you hold a valid licence from a country other than the one in which you are banned, then you may drive on that licence in any country other than the one in which you were banned. The limit of authority of the banning authority is the country in which they have jurisdiction.
In fact, if you have a duplicate U.K. licence it is a matter of conjecture as to whether you can drive abroad on it if banned in the UK. After all, the nmagistrates don't say that your licence is removed or cancelled, they say that you are disqualified from driving, which means disqualified in the territory over which they have jurisdiction (i.e. the U.K.). In such a case it's the insurance which could be the problem as you are required to: ".... hold, or have held and not be disqualified from holding, a driving licence for the class of vehicle covered" (or words to that effect).
Also I.O.M & N.I. have mutual disqualification recognitions with GB.In fact, if you have a duplicate U.K. licence it is a matter of conjecture as to whether you can drive abroad on it if banned in the UK. After all, the nmagistrates don't say that your licence is removed or cancelled, they say that you are disqualified from driving, which means disqualified in the territory over which they have jurisdiction (i.e. the U.K.). In such a case it's the insurance which could be the problem as you are required to: ".... hold, or have held and not be disqualified from holding, a driving licence for the class of vehicle covered" (or words to that effect).
vonhosen said:
Cooperman said:
If you hold a valid licence from a country other than the one in which you are banned, then you may drive on that licence in any country other than the one in which you were banned. The limit of authority of the banning authority is the country in which they have jurisdiction.
In fact, if you have a duplicate U.K. licence it is a matter of conjecture as to whether you can drive abroad on it if banned in the UK. After all, the nmagistrates don't say that your licence is removed or cancelled, they say that you are disqualified from driving, which means disqualified in the territory over which they have jurisdiction (i.e. the U.K.). In such a case it's the insurance which could be the problem as you are required to: ".... hold, or have held and not be disqualified from holding, a driving licence for the class of vehicle covered" (or words to that effect).
Also I.O.M & N.I. have mutual disqualification recognitions with GB.In fact, if you have a duplicate U.K. licence it is a matter of conjecture as to whether you can drive abroad on it if banned in the UK. After all, the nmagistrates don't say that your licence is removed or cancelled, they say that you are disqualified from driving, which means disqualified in the territory over which they have jurisdiction (i.e. the U.K.). In such a case it's the insurance which could be the problem as you are required to: ".... hold, or have held and not be disqualified from holding, a driving licence for the class of vehicle covered" (or words to that effect).
und vice versa But I think you can get aways as Coopers says owing to jurisdiction as it stands at present.
Boils down to legality of being insured. I happen to think being insured ist more important in case of an accident.
Flat in Fifth said:
Cooperman said:
it is not permissable to have two driving licences within the EU.
I've been looking for that, and it is true that when you look at the relevant countries they all seem to talk about exchange of licence, but not been able to find the rule which says that one is not so permitted. However I also recall vonhosen saying that the only way to have two licences was to take two tests.Strange though that my sister did the opposite, ie took UK test and moved to Italy - she was given an Italian licence upon production of the UK one and given the UK licence back, so maybe the same rules don't apply all over the EU?
Edited by catso on Monday 4th June 22:59
Don't forget that DVLA keep a skeleton record so that once an application has been made for a DL one is on their comnputor as are those with 'no' DL that are given points one way or another. Any matters
connected to that DL are duly recorded and available to Plod etc. This will be more pertinent when RSA fully kicks in and those who speed etc and produce a 'foreign' licence will be expeditiously dealt with at the road side which is not the case, I would suggest, at present.
PCJ and an attempt is a serious offence as is using a DL with intent to deceive.
Finally, it cannot be that far away, when EEC law will be harmonious
and points/disqualification in one State will carry the same weight when driving in another. It is already in being that States can exchange details.
dvd
Dwight VanDriver said:
Finally, it cannot be that far away, when EEC law will be harmonious
and points/disqualification in one State will carry the same weight when driving in another.
They need to sort a few thing out first.and points/disqualification in one State will carry the same weight when driving in another.
Italy: start with 20 points when you get to zero you're banned for 3 months (oh and for behaving you get 2 extra points every 2 years to a max of 10... or do a driving course and get an extra 6 points to play with)
UK: start with 0 when you get to 12 you get a 6 month ban.
So get up to 9 in the UK... then drive to Italy speed a few times... and lose them all!
Seriously though there's a LOT more work to do:
Italy: drink driving=15 days to 3 months ban, if car owner declines to nominate a speeding driver no points, but double the fine. No forward facing cameras due to privacy laws, which is a biggy, as it's in the constitution!
You may be used to us surrendering in wars... but start messing with our driving....
Like much of EU law, the traffic laws seem to be in conflict with each other and with other basic requirements of the EU regulations regarding free movement of labour, movement of assets, no barriers to business, etc.
It will take years for this to be resolved and in the meantime anyone with a driving licence problem can easily, with a little bit of effort, get around the current regulations and 'points obsession' in the UK quite legally and easily.
Remember, you can technically 'reside' in any EU country without a visa or work permit. You don't have to spend he majority of your time there, but can have assets there and move them around without 'let or hinderance'.
The application of points in the Uk to drivers of foreign (EU) vehicles will not really amount to much as cameras can't do anything about these vehicles without manned police patrols to actually stop them at the time.
It will take years for this to be resolved and in the meantime anyone with a driving licence problem can easily, with a little bit of effort, get around the current regulations and 'points obsession' in the UK quite legally and easily.
Remember, you can technically 'reside' in any EU country without a visa or work permit. You don't have to spend he majority of your time there, but can have assets there and move them around without 'let or hinderance'.
The application of points in the Uk to drivers of foreign (EU) vehicles will not really amount to much as cameras can't do anything about these vehicles without manned police patrols to actually stop them at the time.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff