help - honestly dont know who was driving
Discussion
A friend of mine has been summoned to court, because her car was shot speeding but she doesn't know if it was her or her husband driving. They have sent her the the photo which shows a blank windscreen and she has told them they do not know which of them it was. She now has to go to court.
Does anyone know what's likely to happen?
Does anyone know what's likely to happen?
Yugguy said:
A friend of mine has been summoned to court, because her car was shot speeding but she doesn't know if it was her or her husband driving. They have sent her the the photo which shows a blank windscreen and she has told them they do not know which of them it was. She now has to go to court.
Does anyone know what's likely to happen?
Just tell it somewhat like it is, and embellish the story by saying that they both drive down that road frequently and often two or more times on the same day. Make up, if necessary, a plausible reason why they do that.Does anyone know what's likely to happen?
Alternatively they could try the spouse cannot be a forced witness against spouse method.
Presumably she, as Reg keeper of the vehicle involved, has been summoned for failing to name the driver contary to Section 172 Road Traffic Act 1988 as amended by Section 21, Road Traffic Act, 1988 and Schedule 2 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.
Punishment if found Guilty - Fine £1,000 (max), discretionary disqualification, 3 penalty points.
A person shall not be guilty of this offence if they show that they did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.
The ball is therefore now in her court to convince the Magistrates.
It has been done in the past - The Hamilton case is an example.
dvd
Punishment if found Guilty - Fine £1,000 (max), discretionary disqualification, 3 penalty points.
A person shall not be guilty of this offence if they show that they did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.
The ball is therefore now in her court to convince the Magistrates.
It has been done in the past - The Hamilton case is an example.
dvd
Sadly, this is a situation where you are guilty until proven innocent, unless you buy the argument that she *is* guilty of not naming the driver even though she doesn't know.
Can she show that she's asked the camera operator for further pictures that show the driver?
Can she show that they've tried to look at bank statements to jog their memory of who was where on that day?
Can she show that she's asked the camera operator for further pictures that show the driver?
Can she show that they've tried to look at bank statements to jog their memory of who was where on that day?
IANAL. Perhaps someone more knowlegable could comment on the following.
In this sort of case would it be best to nominate the spouse, followed by the spouse claiming not guilty. The spouses defence in court is that the evidence is inadmissable as your spouse cannot be forced to witness against you.
The wife has fullfilled her obligation to nominate a driver, the husband can dismiss said evidence.
Well?
In this sort of case would it be best to nominate the spouse, followed by the spouse claiming not guilty. The spouses defence in court is that the evidence is inadmissable as your spouse cannot be forced to witness against you.
The wife has fullfilled her obligation to nominate a driver, the husband can dismiss said evidence.
Well?
Not intending to cast doubt on your friends integrity...but I cannot understand how someone could NOT know who was driving their vehicle at any given point in time. I know I'd know who the NIP belonged to if one ever landed on my door mat.
Suppose (for arguments sake) Mrs Friend borrows hubby's car and pops to the shops...she has a heavy right foot and gets there in good time.(she may already have a few points from other trips to the shops already...dunno...don't care)
Mr Friend would hardly wait for Mrs Friend to come back just to take the exact same route would he? No...unless he owned a share in an oil company he would go with Mrs Friend and save fuel and another few miles on the clock surely?
Anyway the onus of proof would IIRC be upon Mr Friend as the registered keeper to do everything he can to determine who in fact was driving at the time of the alleged offence and to convince the court he really didn't know and couldn't determine who was driving.
Taking the rap for Mrs Friend may lead to a charge of Perverting the course of Justice if the truth ever came out...and the courts tend take a stern view on those sort of charges...(Prison terms are not uncommon) Not that I'm saying this is the case here...just trying out theories to help me understand how someone couldn't know who was driving their car is all.
Suppose (for arguments sake) Mrs Friend borrows hubby's car and pops to the shops...she has a heavy right foot and gets there in good time.(she may already have a few points from other trips to the shops already...dunno...don't care)
Mr Friend would hardly wait for Mrs Friend to come back just to take the exact same route would he? No...unless he owned a share in an oil company he would go with Mrs Friend and save fuel and another few miles on the clock surely?
Anyway the onus of proof would IIRC be upon Mr Friend as the registered keeper to do everything he can to determine who in fact was driving at the time of the alleged offence and to convince the court he really didn't know and couldn't determine who was driving.
Taking the rap for Mrs Friend may lead to a charge of Perverting the course of Justice if the truth ever came out...and the courts tend take a stern view on those sort of charges...(Prison terms are not uncommon) Not that I'm saying this is the case here...just trying out theories to help me understand how someone couldn't know who was driving their car is all.
oldsoak said:
Not intending to cast doubt on your friends integrity...but I cannot understand how someone could NOT know who was driving their vehicle at any given point in time. I know I'd know who the NIP belonged to if one ever landed on my door mat.
S
I have some friends who run a business from home. They must run into town more than half a dozen times a day. Same car, either of them could be driving. A couple of weeks later I doubt if they could be sure which of them was driving at a particular time.S
I had a similar thing with a specs ticket at 3.0am, two of had been driving the car that night down the M1 we swapped drivers several times that night, evidence was a pair of headlights in the photo. We both admitted we had been driving said vehicle, we could'nt define who it was.
Nothing heard since & that was a year ago
Nothing heard since & that was a year ago
Has anyone ever tried the following (genuinely not knowing who was driving obviously):
RK gets NIP.
RK returns NIP stating that Driver A was driving.
Driver A gets NIP.
Driver A returns NIP stating that the RK was driving.
And so on until the six months is up for an information to be laid...
?
RK gets NIP.
RK returns NIP stating that Driver A was driving.
Driver A gets NIP.
Driver A returns NIP stating that the RK was driving.
And so on until the six months is up for an information to be laid...
?
cptsideways,s2art, interesting, but we really don't know that either of those scenarios apply here so not worth arguing about them...
I was thinking more on the lines of a car shared by Mr&Mrs Friend...as the OP suggested was the case... not shared company vehicles or some other obscure concerns.
In THAT scenario two people one house one car both drive how the fluff can you NOT know who has the car at any point?
I was thinking more on the lines of a car shared by Mr&Mrs Friend...as the OP suggested was the case... not shared company vehicles or some other obscure concerns.
In THAT scenario two people one house one car both drive how the fluff can you NOT know who has the car at any point?
oldsoak said:
cptsideways,s2art, interesting, but we really don't know that either of those scenarios apply here so not worth arguing about them...
I was thinking more on the lines of a car shared by Mr&Mrs Friend...as the OP suggested was the case... not shared company vehicles or some other obscure concerns.
In THAT scenario two people one house one car both drive how the fluff can you NOT know who has the car at any point?
2 weeks later remember. I can't remember exactly where and when I was driving my cars two weeks ago.I was thinking more on the lines of a car shared by Mr&Mrs Friend...as the OP suggested was the case... not shared company vehicles or some other obscure concerns.
In THAT scenario two people one house one car both drive how the fluff can you NOT know who has the car at any point?
I understand that the law states that you must provide the name(s) of who couldhave been driving and demonstrate that you have taken all reasonable measures to determine who it was.
Courts are wise though to people providing a random list of mates.
If the police evidence is not identifying the driver and you can genuinely demonstrate that you have tried to assertain but it is not possible then it won't get far in court.
Courts are wise though to people providing a random list of mates.
If the police evidence is not identifying the driver and you can genuinely demonstrate that you have tried to assertain but it is not possible then it won't get far in court.
cptsideways said:
I had a similar thing with a specs ticket at 3.0am, two of had been driving the car that night down the M1 we swapped drivers several times that night, evidence was a pair of headlights in the photo. We both admitted we had been driving said vehicle, we could'nt define who it was.
Nothing heard since & that was a year ago
Aye, this is how it was with them, long journey with driver swaps.Nothing heard since & that was a year ago
She's been summonsed tho.
Her husband's an arsehole on 9 points and wants her to take them anyway.
oldsoak said:
Not intending to cast doubt on your friends integrity...but I cannot understand how someone could NOT know who was driving their vehicle at any given point in time. I know I'd know who the NIP belonged to if one ever landed on my door mat.
Me and the Missus both drive each other's cars, daily. We often take each others car to work, dependent on where we're going through the day (say she's going to the gym where parking is tight, she'll take the Ka...if she has to go out on business she'll take the Megane etc).We don't keep logs, we're both insured on both...and I wouldn't have a bloody clue which of us was driving which 3 days ago, let alone 13!
How do these types of cases work in court then. For instance If Im driver A and the other person on my insurance is person B, would the courts look into both drivers history? Im thinking along the lines of off loading points onto somebody else to prevent a ban. Would the courts then see through this.
What would happen also, If Im driver A and I get caught doing over the speed limit but then tried to get someone else to take the points. Would the court accept that driver B is guilty just by filling in the NIP and sending it back? Would the court bother to look at the photographic evidence or is filling the form in and sending it back an admission of guilt and therefore done and dusted??
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I think some of my questions apply here..
What would happen also, If Im driver A and I get caught doing over the speed limit but then tried to get someone else to take the points. Would the court accept that driver B is guilty just by filling in the NIP and sending it back? Would the court bother to look at the photographic evidence or is filling the form in and sending it back an admission of guilt and therefore done and dusted??
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I think some of my questions apply here..
XTR2Turbo said:
I understand that the law states that you must provide the name(s) of who couldhave been driving and demonstrate that you have taken all reasonable measures to determine who it was.
The 'reasonable diligence' test only applies to the person keeping the vehicle.If the recipient of a NIP is not the PKV, then the responsibilities placed upon them by s.172 RTA 1988 are far less onerous. A non-PKV need only provide information which is in their power to give.
Scenario:
Mrs X is the registered keeper and regular user for her car. The car is insured for Mrs X, Mr X and their son.
The car is scammed and Mrs X, as RK, receives a NIP within 14 days.
Mrs X knows she was not driving and nominates Mr X who receives his own NIP in due course.
Mr X cannot (genuinely) remember who was driving. To fulfil his statutory obligations, he writes to the scammers and says it may have been him or his son but he is unable to definitively state which.
After receiving numerous threats from the scammers, Mr X receives a summons for failing to provide driver details.
In court, Mr X asserts that he is not the PKV. Accordingly, it then falls to the prosecution to prove that Mr X had information which was in his power to give and that he failed to give it.
On the grounds that Mr X had already provided a list of possible drivers, it would be practically impossible for the prosecution to 'prove' that Mr X did have any additional information which he had failed to give..
Result - Not guilty..
GavDav said:
How do these types of cases work in court then. For instance If Im driver A and the other person on my insurance is person B, would the courts look into both drivers history? Im thinking along the lines of off loading points onto somebody else to prevent a ban. Would the courts then see through this.
What would happen also, If Im driver A and I get caught doing over the speed limit but then tried to get someone else to take the points. Would the court accept that driver B is guilty just by filling in the NIP and sending it back? Would the court bother to look at the photographic evidence or is filling the form in and sending it back an admission of guilt and therefore done and dusted??
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I think some of my questions apply here..
See here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...What would happen also, If Im driver A and I get caught doing over the speed limit but then tried to get someone else to take the points. Would the court accept that driver B is guilty just by filling in the NIP and sending it back? Would the court bother to look at the photographic evidence or is filling the form in and sending it back an admission of guilt and therefore done and dusted??
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but I think some of my questions apply here..
GavDav said:
Im thinking along the lines of off loading points onto somebody else to prevent a ban.
Your thinking is entirely hypothetical, of course..Anyone caught doing this would probably be charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice. A conviction for this offence could see the defendant facing a custodial sentence.
I'm sure that plenty of people do 'get away with it', but those that are caught (and plenty do) face hefty punishment..
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