Who has right of way

[Ballon]

After having my parentage questioned the other day by one of the many suicidal cyclists who commute into the city. I want to be sure who would be in the wrong if an accident occured.

I was waiting at a junction at the head of the queue indicating to turn left. As the lights changed quick glance over the left shoulder only to find the kamikaze king right by me travelling at speed going straight on. Had I not looked I would have hit him and in all likelyhood come off my motorcycle at the same time.

I did question his intelligence hence the retort about parentage and that I should learn the highway code. I have always thought that the vehicle turning left had the right of way.

I don't particularly want to rant about cyclists but this happens on a regular basis.

As an aside I think these green cycle lanes are dangerous in this particular respect.

[LivinLaVidaLotus]

If he was coming up the inside of you from a distance back, then I'd of thought he'd be at fault. Was there a marked cycle lane at all?

[Ballon]

LivinLaVidaLotus said:

If he was coming up the inside of you from a distance back, then I'd of thought he'd be at fault. Was there a marked cycle lane at all?

Yes there is but it seems insane that they would have the right of way at such a junction, not everyone looks in the left mirror etc.

[SplatSpeed]

Ballon said:

LivinLaVidaLotus said:

If he was coming up the inside of you from a distance back, then I'd of thought he'd be at fault. Was there a marked cycle lane at all?

Yes there is but it seems insane that they would have the right of way at such a junction, not everyone looks in the left mirror etc.

so you havn't been to europe

[EU_Foreigner]

Indeed - not to mention that cyclists have right of way over there when they come from the road on the right and want to cross the road in front of you.

Also - in Europe you are always guilty when you hit a bicycle, no matter who is at fault.

[sjtscott]

Ballon said:

After having my parentage questioned the other day by one of the many suicidal cyclists who commute into the city. I want to be sure who would be in the wrong if an accident occured.

I was waiting at a junction at the head of the queue indicating to turn left. As the lights changed quick glance over the left shoulder only to find the kamikaze king right by me travelling at speed going straight on. Had I not looked I would have hit him and in all likelyhood come off my motorcycle at the same time.

I did question his intelligence hence the retort about parentage and that I should learn the highway code. I have always thought that the vehicle turning left had the right of way.

I don't particularly want to rant about cyclists but this happens on a regular basis.

As an aside I think these green cycle lanes are dangerous in this particular respect.

I'm getting used to this now after moving to central london in April, there are a number of cyclists who try this on left turns frequently to me on my motorcycle. Its not just stationary either, I've been slow moving and found idiots trying to pass you up the inside when you are clearly indicating. As far as I'm concerned the cyclist should be giving way to me turning left at the head of the queue and not trying to pass me up the inside to carry straight on, sounds like normal highway code rules of the road to me. Its bad enough that some 60% of cyclists don't stop at red lights in london anyway which causes other issues to traffic and pedestrians. Though in general there seems to be a lack of observation and awareness of what is going on round them, esp given the ones who do stop at lights who place themselves in front of me on a motorcycle at the head of the queue rather than the cars.

[MilnerR]

This is something I pay very close attention to when I'm turning left. Especially on my way into sheffield, lots of steep hills with cyclists trying to crack the landspeed record on the inside of stationary traffic. As far as I know bikes should be treated like any other vehicle on the road. They have pretty much the same responsibilities. If you saw an artic Unit turning left ahead of you and he'd had to pull onto the other side of the road to get the angle to turn, you wouldn't drive up the inside of him.

[Parrot of Doom]

As a cyclist I feel that the traffic has right of way until I'm past their front bumper.

I would never filter up to a junction without considering what the traffic I'm filtering past is going to do.

The cyclist in your story is an idiot IMO.

[paulsm]

you wouldn't do it in a car / on a motorbike - Don't do it on a bicycle.

[Marki]

SplatSpeed said:

Ballon said:

LivinLaVidaLotus said:

If he was coming up the inside of you from a distance back, then I'd of thought he'd be at fault. Was there a marked cycle lane at all?

Yes there is but it seems insane that they would have the right of way at such a junction, not everyone looks in the left mirror etc.

so you havn't been to europe

Exactly ,,, try not useing your mirror over here and you will be dragged out your car and beatten to death by the angry mob

[walm]

paulsm said:

you wouldn't do it in a car / on a motorbike - Don't do it on a bicycle.

But if there is a cycle lane I would use it on my bicycle (obviously).
I am not sure about the HC here but it seems to me the cycle lane is treated like a regular lane that just happens to be filled with cyclists.
Ballon was attempting to turn left but had to cross the cycle lane to do it.
Since he was stationary at the front of his lane the cyclists were within their rights to cycle up to the front of their lane while all the cars/motorcycles sat outside them remain stationary.
If you were in L2 on a motorway in a traffic jam and L1 happened to be moving faster you wouldn't just stick your indicator on and barge into L1; is the OP situation different?
Legit undertaking in a separate lane.
Anyway MIRROR-signal-maneuver(sp?).

[sjtscott]

walm said:

paulsm said:

you wouldn't do it in a car / on a motorbike - Don't do it on a bicycle.

But if there is a cycle lane I would use it on my bicycle (obviously).
I am not sure about the HC here but it seems to me the cycle lane is treated like a regular lane that just happens to be filled with cyclists.
Ballon was attempting to turn left but had to cross the cycle lane to do it.
Since he was stationary at the front of his lane the cyclists were within their rights to cycle up to the front of their lane while all the cars/motorcycles sat outside them remain stationary.
If you were in L2 on a motorway in a traffic jam and L1 happened to be moving faster you wouldn't just stick your indicator on and barge into L1; is the OP situation different?
Legit undertaking in a separate lane.
Anyway MIRROR-signal-maneuver(sp?).

There's a big difference between giving way to the cyclists stopped to your left/front (which I also do regularly) who've been waiting at the lights with you compared to those that fail to observe a change in lights and/or movement in traffic approaching from behind and cut up your inside while you are carrying out a legitimate left turn. In fact most cycle lanes in London end at the stop line of the light and carry on again the other side of the junction so the argument about it being an extra mini left lane with cyclists in just doesn't hold any weight. In all cases where I've been cut up by cyclists trying to pass me to the left to carry straight on I've not been ever crossing a dedicated cycle lane.

[streaky]

Cyclists have right of way regardless, especially if wearing Lycra. They also have an acquired command of vengeful, vivid, vicious, venomous, violent, vernacular invective that would make a Marine Sergeant blush to hear - Streaky

[walm]

sjtscott said:

There's a big difference between giving way to the cyclists stopped to your left/front (which I also do regularly) who've been waiting at the lights with you compared to those that fail to observe a change in lights and/or movement in traffic approaching from behind and cut up your inside while you are carrying out a legitimate left turn. In fact most cycle lanes in London end at the stop line of the light and carry on again the other side of the junction so the argument about it being an extra mini left lane with cyclists in just doesn't hold any weight. In all cases where I've been cut up by cyclists trying to pass me to the left to carry straight on I've not been ever crossing a dedicated cycle lane.

OP said there was a cycle lane, so I was only addressing that. I agree that anyone passing you on the left without a lane of their own is in the wrong, as far as I understand it (unless you were turning right).
Bus lanes also end at the stop line and continue after the junction. If you were to perform a legitimate left (after the stop line once the lights had changed) and a bus plowed into you is he in the wrong? I don't think so, even though he is not in a marked lane. Again it is similar to the L1, L2 argument on the motorway.

[walm]

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.htm#158 
See the nice picture at rule 158, "do not cut in on cyclists" after stating "watch out for traffic coming up on your left".

Strangely seems to be saying that undertaking is ok on a bicycle (even without a dedicated cycle lane), which I was not aware of.
I do not mean to defend London cyclists, most of them are nutters.

[Code Monkey]

walm said:

paulsm said:

you wouldn't do it in a car / on a motorbike - Don't do it on a bicycle.

But if there is a cycle lane I would use it on my bicycle (obviously).
I am not sure about the HC here but it seems to me the cycle lane is treated like a regular lane that just happens to be filled with cyclists.
Ballon was attempting to turn left but had to cross the cycle lane to do it.
Since he was stationary at the front of his lane the cyclists were within their rights to cycle up to the front of their lane while all the cars/motorcycles sat outside them remain stationary.
If you were in L2 on a motorway in a traffic jam and L1 happened to be moving faster you wouldn't just stick your indicator on and barge into L1; is the OP situation different?
Legit undertaking in a separate lane.
Anyway MIRROR-signal-maneuver(sp?).

Sounds about right, of course this will enforce the next solution from the drivers point of view, to pull across into L1 before stopping when comfortably past the cyclist and make them wait in the queue.

Funny really if both parties approached the route with thought that "I need to get somewhere and will do it in the calmest easiest way I can" then all would be ok to manage. But most people travel with I'm important 4 Q to the rest of the world. Not directed at the OP just my impressions of people when commuting

[sjtscott]

walm said:

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.htm#158 
See the nice picture at rule 158, "do not cut in on cyclists" after stating "watch out for traffic coming up on your left".

Strangely seems to be saying that undertaking is ok on a bicycle (even without a dedicated cycle lane), which I was not aware of.
I do not mean to defend London cyclists, most of them are nutters.

Rule 158 with a tick shows a car driver wishing to turn left giving way to a cyclist in FRONT of the car. This makes perfect sense to me and I'd do this every time with a cyclist who was in front of me before a junction I'd wish to turn left at. I'd slow and wait for them to clear the junction first. What this does not cover is the undertaking part of the cyclist approaching from the rear (usually at speed). By this I mean, there is NO cyclist in front of you so no one to slow/give way to, however on clearly indicating and slowing down to take the junction the cyclist approaching from the rear at speed doesn't alter their course/speed and in the time it takes for you to slow down be it by other traffic or something else to slow you considerably (i.e. below the cyclists approaching speed) the cyclist undertakes you as you are about to execute the left turn. There is a clear difference here which I hope I've made clear. This is the type of cyclist behaviour you have to put up with every day in London.

[walm]

You have made it very clear and looking at it again the picture doesn't help my case!

However, I was thinking that the wording is trying to suggest that you DO have to give way to the cyclists in your example.
Again, "watch out for traffic coming up on your left", implies that someone is indeed undertaking you but you are in the wrong not to give way to them.
Damn, even as I write this I have a bad taste in my mouth, because I want you to be in the right here.
The problem is that I am SURE that if you hit a cyclist who was undertaking you in your example you would still be considered in the wrong simply because you didn't look in the mirror. And even if you did, just because the cyclist is being an @rse and undertaking, I don't think you can say "well I looked in my mirror, saw the guy, and like every lycra-clad numpty, he was undertaking me at speed, so I then drove in front of him."

[sjtscott]

walm said:

You have made it very clear and looking at it again the picture doesn't help my case!

However, I was thinking that the wording is trying to suggest that you DO have to give way to the cyclists in your example.
Again, "watch out for traffic coming up on your left", implies that someone is indeed undertaking you but you are in the wrong not to give way to them.
Damn, even as I write this I have a bad taste in my mouth, because I want you to be in the right here.
The problem is that I am SURE that if you hit a cyclist who was undertaking you in your example you would still be considered in the wrong simply because you didn't look in the mirror. And even if you did, just because the cyclist is being an @rse and undertaking, I don't think you can say "well I looked in my mirror, saw the guy, and like every lycra-clad numpty, he was undertaking me at speed, so I then drove in front of him."

Well I would expect a cyclist would take more care if they were undertaking a 4 wheeled vehicle turning or indicating to turn however in both the OP and my cases we're refering to us riding motorcycles, cyclists seem to show us minimal and in some cases zero care and consideration. I'm used to being a second class citizen in this country in any case from most of the 4 wheel traffic (which I'm long passed giving a flying **** about) but I'd expect more out of the average cyclist as I usually extend them far greater courtesy and respect than the 4 wheeled traffic in london. There are just some cyclists who really take the p***. I know when I should be giving way and when someone is cycling without due care and consideration for other road users.

[cptsideways]

Allow the rules of Darwin'ism to intervene & filter them & their genes out of the system