Wednesday 19th September 2007

High Speed Police Chases To Be Reviewed

Increase in fatalities blamed on police not following procedures

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More training needed for safer high speed chases

In the wake of the tragic accident on the M4 last Monday, where a Mondeo carrying four passengers crashed whilst being driven the wrong way down the motorway, the issue of the effectiveness of high-speed chases has been raised.

A report from the Independent Police Complaints Commission, the official police watchdog, yesterday claimed that officers involved in chases are often taking unnecessary risks and avoided established guidelines aimed at minimising the risk to all involved. These include using 4x4s and vans in chases.

The report also found that the number of crashes involving police vehicles had increased from 101 in 2004-2005 to 109 in 2005-2006, with 32 of the deaths caused in ’05/’06 linked to police chases, and 21 of those that died not being involved in the chase at all.

The IPCC also added that despite the number of fatalities, little or no progress had been made in improving the management of police vehicles when they are involved in pursuits.

Police chiefs maintain that chases are necessary, but have announced that guidelines will be reviewed, refreshed and reinforced. This can’t come soon enough as there have already been 49 fatal and serious injuries as a result of police chases in the first half of 2007, compared to 71 injuries and deaths recorded for the whole of 2006.

[bigsteve238]

What are the police to do,Let criminals do what they want and only get involved once they crash into and hurt or kill general joe public?

[Fort Jefferson]

The problem is, two cars going fast doubles the risk to the public, and the Police have shown, by the number of people they kill, that they seem to be no better drivers than the rest of us. It's a no win situation.

[TripleS]

Fort Jefferson said:

The problem is, two cars going fast doubles the risk to the public, and the Police have shown, by the number of people they kill, that they seem to be no better drivers than the rest of us. It's a no win situation.

Oh no, that's not right. The rules concerning 'police accidents' in pursuit situations sound to me to be extremely unreasonable in the way they work, and it puts the police in a quite unjustifiably bad light. Let's try to be fair about it.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[gizmo.mp3]

They'll probably decide that they can stop doing chases if they install ANPR cameras on every road..!

They'll ignore the way that people brake for ANPR cameras as if they were speed cameras, creating accidents and congestion when other drivers behind them panic-brake...

[oldsoak]

Whatever happened to....http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/jul/12/sciencenews.crime

...perhaps it was too boring as car chases were more fun?

[stew-S160]

this is retarded. absolutely retarded

[Tinohead]

I don't understand why the M4 accident is being used as a reason for all this. As I understood it, the police stopped following the car 1.5 miles before the accident, so obviously the idiots behind the wheel were determined to drive like maniacs with or without a police car behind them.

[mph999]

Fort Jefferson said:

... that they seem to be no better drivers than the rest of us. It's a no win situation.

Trust me, the Police driver is a lot lot better than an "average driver".

In fact, the difference is so great, you can't really compare the two.

However, this does not mean ...

1. Joe Average cannot take the time to learn and drive at an "equal standard"
2. PC Dibble cannot have an accident

M

[Jasandjules]

mph999 said:

Trust me, the Police driver is a lot lot better than an "average driver".

To be fair, anyone who actually sees another moving vehicle is better than average IME...

But yes, the police are better trained than most, roadcraft and all sorts of skills which the public can learn to a degree thanks to police drivers running courses etc......

[over_the_hill]

Jasandjules said:

mph999 said:

Trust me, the Police driver is a lot lot better than an "average driver".

To be fair, anyone who actually sees another moving vehicle is better than average IME...

But yes, the police are better trained than most, roadcraft and all sorts of skills which the public can learn to a degree thanks to police drivers running courses etc......

I think you will find that it is TrafPol who are a lot better trained than the average driver.
Your regular plod in "the panda" will have little or no more training than average and quite possibly less than many on here.

[turbo tim]

Saw this on Sky news last night...
IIRC, the new guidelines include 'Don't chase Motorbikes'. Cue loads of crims favouring motorbikes...

Tinohead said:

I don't understand why the M4 accident is being used as a reason for all this. As I understood it, the police stopped following the car 1.5 miles before the accident, so obviously the idiots behind the wheel were determined to drive like maniacs with or without a police car behind them.

Good point.
Think they're just doing the usual practice of using an innapropriate case as a scapegoat...

Fort Jefferson said:

The problem is, two cars going fast doubles the risk to the public.

That's not correct. Having a second car will maybe increase the risk to public slightly, but definitely doesn't double it.
What's the alternative - just let them away with it??

[Robinlarge]

Sometimes people exceed the speed limit - if they get caught then thats their lookout - whether it was accidental or not. These folk are different - they are hoping to evade certain arrest for a crime already committed.

I dont usually side with the police but.......... surely if the statistics were properly presented with an analysis of the number of chases, the number of cars on the road and mention made of the number of car chases that succesfully terminated the career of yet another career criminal then things wouldnt look so bad.

As for letting people just run riot without being chased? Doesnt bear thinking about.
The police do a difficult job and without them we would really have a problem.

[hairykrishna]

Come on, stopped following 1.5 miles before the accident? That's what, a minute maybe? IMO they'd still be in the 'we're being chased' mentality.

I think the chase/no chase thing needs some serious debate. I think that it's only right to chase if you're putting more lives at risk by not chasing (like they're taking potshots at coppers with a pistol). If it's just some scrotes who've nicked a car giving them their very own 'GTA' experience is not going to help matters.

[AndyRw]

over_the_hill said:

I think you will find that it is TrafPol who are a lot better trained than the average driver.
Your regular plod in "the panda" will have little or no more training than average and quite possibly less than many on here.

Regular plod have a four week driving course in my area before they're allowed to use blues and stop vehicles. Most other forces have similar courses though they vary a bit in length. Traffic then have further courses on top of that relating to tactical pursuits and ending them.

[LoudPedal]

A difficult problem in any country. The same debate has been raised here in the US, and I'm sure it will continue. I'd predict the same as what's happened here: Problem becomes debated, cops insist chases are necessary, special tactics equipment and education are employed, situation gets somewhat better. Fact is, crims will run & cops must persue to apprehend. Criminal activity must be stopped, something we all insist upon. That is a fact we all must live with. How that's done is where intelligence comes in. Any time innocents are killed, even the good guys will be under scrutiny. It's not enough to simply add murder to the charges if death of innocents (or cops) occurs while being chased. Since they have to answer the ethical question, cops just have to be smarter to catch the crims, as usual. Obviously there's always a better way. Once the public determines how much life is worth, technology and tactics may provide answers, at least temporarily (till the next work-around is figured out by the crims). We should be glad that reviews are done, that our governments are tolerant of scrutiny and responsive when it comes to our police actions.

[oldschoolcool]

Tinohead said:

I don't understand why the M4 accident is being used as a reason for all this. As I understood it, the police stopped following the car 1.5 miles before the accident, so obviously the idiots behind the wheel were determined to drive like maniacs with or without a police car behind them.

In total agreement with this, what a joke. Are they just supposed to watch as these tea leaves drive unlawfully or do their best to catch and stop them...?

[cen]

Tinohead said:

I don't understand why the M4 accident is being used as a reason for all this. As I understood it, the police stopped following the car 1.5 miles before the accident, so obviously the idiots behind the wheel were determined to drive like maniacs with or without a police car behind them.

With respect, so they said. We are again discussing Gwent Police who appear to have their own set of rules and can tell the odd porky like any member of the general public.

What concerns me more is where are the chases happening (giving regard to the IPCC file). There are no traffic police patrolling the area where I live moreover, we don't see plod in a Panda.If there were then they could have a field day with boy racers.

In fact the A470 through South Wales was always patrolled by traffic until a few years ago when speed cameras were discovered. I cannot remember the last time that I seen a Traffic car on my travels throughout South Wales.

Hence, there cannot be any chases without someone to chase them

[ninjaboy]

Fort Jefferson said:

The problem is, two cars going fast doubles the risk to the public, and the Police have shown, by the number of people they kill, that they seem to be no better drivers than the rest of us. It's a no win situation.

Too true, the police make out that their super human drivers ect ect but the truth seems to be they are like everyone else some are skilled some aint. But to be fair to them its a hard decision to make chase and risk them killing or not chase and let them kill, not much fun.

Edited by ninjaboy on Wednesday 19th September 16:35

[MilnerR]

Police pursuit tactics are becoming ever more sophisticated. Of course if there were more highly trained traffic units to help contain these chases then there would be more scrotes caught and fewer innocent people hurt. Air units would also help to catch the runners and would lower the chances of them being pursued to disaster, again that will never happen either.

The police can't win, if they do nothing the papers will crucify them for being soft on crime, if they chase down every scrote and bystanders get injured the same papers will berate them as too heavy handed and putting crime before public safety!

[Sheriff JWPepper]

The collision on the M4 was not an accident.