Speeding and Companies Act 2006...

[Muncher]

At present a Ltd company must have a company secretary. If the registered keeper of a vehicle is a Ltd company and fails to identify the driver, the secretary will get the fine and points and s172 RTA.

In April 2008 the Companies Act 2006 comes into force and removes the need for a Ltd company to have a company secretary. Therefore, what is stopping my company secretary from resigning, me changing the registration of all my cars to thecompany? Should the company then get a NIP and be unable to answer it, it just gets the fine under S172 and no-one can therefore get the points.

[10 Pence Short]

Why not reigster the cars with someone who doesn't have a driving licence. Fail to disclose 172 = 6 points on no licence and just a fine.

Or is that too simplistic?

[Muncher]

10 Pence Short said:

Why not reigster the cars with someone who doesn't have a driving licence. Fail to disclose 172 = 6 points on no licence and just a fine.

Or is that too simplistic?

That would work too but I imagine there isn't sufficient excuse for doing that. Also I don't know many people without a driving license.

[Jeremy Kyle]

Muncher said:

At present a Ltd company must have a company secretary. If the registered keeper of a vehicle is a Ltd company and fails to identify the driver, the secretary will get the fine and points and s172 RTA.

In April 2008 the Companies Act 2006 comes into force and removes the need for a Ltd company to have a company secretary. Therefore, what is stopping my company secretary from resigning, me changing the registration of all my cars to thecompany? Should the company then get a NIP and be unable to answer it, it just gets the fine under S172 and no-one can therefore get the points.

its a very good idea but the problem occurs when you get to court and questioned as to why you cannot identfy the driver. so for example if i was to set up a ltd company soley for the purpose of "evading" points and i was the ONLY employee registered it would be hard to stand up and say "I dont know who the driver was" however if you have a few company cars with a few employees allowed to drive them (and regulary drive different ones) then i believe there is no legal requirement to log this information.

Edited by Jeremy Kyle on Friday 21st September 15:35

[Jeremy Kyle]

10 Pence Short said:

Why not reigster the cars with someone who doesn't have a driving licence. Fail to disclose 172 = 6 points on no licence and just a fine.

Or is that too simplistic?

would that cause problems with insurance? are you legally allowed to do this. it seems the way to go.

[djohnson]

I would love to know if this would actually work. A shell company can be set up for very little. It'll need a set of accounts and Corporation tax return every year(along with other bits of admin) but these are easy if there's no trade.

[djohnson]

Jeremy Kyle said:

its a very good idea but the problem occurs when you get to court and questioned as to why you cannot identfy the driver. so for example if i was to set up a ltd company soley for the purpose of "evading" points and i was the ONLY employee registered it would be hard to stand up and say "I dont know who the driver was" however if you have a few company cars with a few employees allowed to drive them (and regulary drive different ones) then i believe there is no legal requirement to log this information.

Edited by Jeremy Kyle on Friday 21st September 15:35

The driver of the car doesn't have to be an employee though? When I was a youngster I used to be able to drive my Dad's company car.

[Muncher]

Jeremy Kyle said:

its a very good idea but the problem occurs when you get to court and questioned as to why you cannot identfy the driver. so for example if i was to set up a ltd company soley for the purpose of "evading" points and i was the ONLY employee registered it would be hard to stand up and say "I dont know who the driver was" however if you have a few company cars with a few employees allowed to drive them (and regulary drive different ones) then i believe there is no legal requirement to log this information.

It doesn't even require an excuse, the company just needs to refuse to name the driver and is then fined accordingly. Alternatively just give a pretty feeble excuse as to why they can't be named. More than one person could be insured to drive it and although you have records of who may have been driving it, you can't be 100% sure.

[EU_Foreigner]

A friend of mine just did exactly that. The company refused to release the data based on the data protection act

Two tickets - both no action taken against the company and not heard anything since.

[Ean218]

Muncher said:

At present a Ltd company must have a company secretary. If the registered keeper of a vehicle is a Ltd company and fails to identify the driver, the secretary will get the fine and points and s172 RTA.

No, the above is incorrect. This is what the RTA actually says:

"5) Where a body corporate is guilty of an offence under this section and the offence is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to neglect on the part of, a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or a person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, he, as well as the body corporate, is guilty of that offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly."

They can get you any way up, whether they can be bothered is another matter.

[tigger1]

FishFace said:

Of course it can. S172 recently was judged to be compatible against the HRA.

Yes, even though the "trial" was an absolute load of boocks.

[skwdenyer]

Ean218 said:

Muncher said:

At present a Ltd company must have a company secretary. If the registered keeper of a vehicle is a Ltd company and fails to identify the driver, the secretary will get the fine and points and s172 RTA.

No, the above is incorrect. This is what the RTA actually says:

"5) Where a body corporate is guilty of an offence under this section and the offence is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to neglect on the part of, a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or a person who was purporting to act in any such capacity, he, as well as the body corporate, is guilty of that offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly."

They can get you any way up, whether they can be bothered is another matter.

Yes, but a Director or Secretary only have to be a legal person, not a natural person. So options:

1. Use an off-the-shelf company formation service and pay a few quid extra for nominee Director and Secretary services.

2. Set up XYZ Ltd in the UK. Director and Secretary are both offshore companies.

3. Indeed, register the car to XYZ Co in the Virgin Islands (just pick the cheapest offshore jurisdiction for company formation).

The only problem with option 3 is that the car might be seized as the only visible UK asset of the company. To make option 3 more "ring-fencable" you could try LeaseCo Ltd (UK company), owns (but does not keep) car. Rents car to RentCo (offshore company) which is the keeper and insurer.

However this is a lot of mess to get around a few points / quid. If you started racking up many unpaid fines, it is not inconceivable that somebody would start digging. You could be deemed to be the keeper and therefore liable irrespective of what the paperwork says.

Oh and of course you might be lumbered with company car taxation, higher insurance premiums, various other tax and (conceivably) VAT implications, and so on.

A new twist might be to remain the owner / keeper of the car but set up a UK Ltd company in any case. When challenged under s172 you could claim that "the driver of the car was XYZ Ltd". Since XYZ Ltd is a legal person, and since it would in any case have vicarious liability for the actions of its employees or agents, it is interesting to consider whether you've adequately discharged your duties under s172 or not. You wouldn't have to list XYZ Ltd as keeper, only as driver. Since you've answered the question, there would seem to be no case to answer by either you or XYZ Ltd.

Meanwhile, XYZ Ltd could defend the charge of speeding by the simple construct of saying "I am a person, but not a natural person, therefore I cannot drive." This could get mired for a while, but I'm sure there'd be a way to get you in the end

[phatboytim]

Easier still, set up 5 or 6 ltd Co's and cross lend the car right down the chain,
Co. A nominates Co.B just before 28 days, Co. B nominates Co. C etc.. Co.E/F names the driver, just as the speeding offence 'times out' at 6 months.

phatboytim

[NugentS]

Jeremy Kyle said:

Muncher said:

At present a Ltd company must have a company secretary. If the registered keeper of a vehicle is a Ltd company and fails to identify the driver, the secretary will get the fine and points and s172 RTA.

In April 2008 the Companies Act 2006 comes into force and removes the need for a Ltd company to have a company secretary. Therefore, what is stopping my company secretary from resigning, me changing the registration of all my cars to thecompany? Should the company then get a NIP and be unable to answer it, it just gets the fine under S172 and no-one can therefore get the points.

its a very good idea but the problem occurs when you get to court and questioned as to why you cannot identfy the driver. so for example if i was to set up a ltd company soley for the purpose of "evading" points and i was the ONLY employee registered it would be hard to stand up and say "I dont know who the driver was" however if you have a few company cars with a few employees allowed to drive them (and regulary drive different ones) then i believe there is no legal requirement to log this information.

Edited by Jeremy Kyle on Friday 21st September 15:35

Why on earth would you give any evidence at all. All that would happen is that the company would plead guilty to S172.

Sean

[fluffnik]

FishFace said:

Of course it can. S172 recently was judged to be compatible against the HRA.

Not unanimously and only in one circumstance.

We'll break it yet.

...or those behind it.