Is it Enforcement, Limits or Both?
Discussion
Im just interested to see what really gets people so wound up about the whole speed issue.
Is it the level of "enforcement" i.e. Loads of Gatsos, truvelos, camera vans that people dont like?
Is it the limits, that people dont like? Or that aren’t realistic?
Or most likely a combination of both? If the limits were raised on roads with a proven low/non existant accident rate, (i.e. motorways) or to what some elements of this site would call a more realistic level, would people be happy for the same level of enforcement to continue?
Or are current limits fine, just over policed for whatever reason? (cash, etc)
Over to you.
>>> Edited by llamekcuf on Wednesday 18th June 10:53
Is it the level of "enforcement" i.e. Loads of Gatsos, truvelos, camera vans that people dont like?
Is it the limits, that people dont like? Or that aren’t realistic?
Or most likely a combination of both? If the limits were raised on roads with a proven low/non existant accident rate, (i.e. motorways) or to what some elements of this site would call a more realistic level, would people be happy for the same level of enforcement to continue?
Or are current limits fine, just over policed for whatever reason? (cash, etc)
Over to you.
>>> Edited by llamekcuf on Wednesday 18th June 10:53
llamekcuf said:
Im just interested to see what really gets people so would up about the whole speed issue.
Is it the level of "enforcement" i.e. Loads of Gatsos, truvelos, camera vans that people dont like.
Is it the limits, that people dont like? Or that aren’t realistic?
Or most likely a combination of both? If the limits were raised on roads with a proven low/non existant accident rate, (i.e. motorways) or to what some elements of this site would call a more realistic level, would people be happy for the same level of enforcement to continue?
Or are current limits fine, just over policed for whatever reason? (cash, etc)
Over to you.
Its a combination and of course the fiddling of statistics to prove the need for scameras. They cannot possibly have accident data to prove the need for scameras on new dual carriageways, however they still install them!
The other factor is where they reduce speed limits then install a camera. Usually at a location where the problem is caused by rush hour traffic and people not paying attention.
For eample the A2 on the run into London from the M25, is dual carriageway, had its speed limit reduced and is camera enforced. Yes there were accidents but these were usually caused in the rush hour by idiots thundering up the dual carriageway and ploughing into the back of stationary traffic.
Scameras should be used with discretion, so that someone doing 35 mph past a school at 8.45am gets charged, but someone doing 35mph in the same location at 4.00am doesn't.
I find that driving at 65mph or 70 on the motorway is very relaxing, I don't need to watch out for police cars etc. However I am sure that makes me a much more dangerous driver as I am not paying attention, not as alert etc. If I drive above the speed limit, then I am keeping a look out for police etc, and am much more alert and a better driver. But does this mean tha if the speed limit on the motorway was 90 I'd drive at 90 without paying attention? I don't know!
Modern cars are I suspect too easy to drive, too warm, too comfortable etc, and therefore they make it too easy to drive, reducing the drivers ability to pay attention, and effectively putting them on automatic pilot.
I suppose it would be interesting to look at motorway accident statistics to find out what type of cars and drivers cause accidents. Whether high performance cars are involved in more accidents caused by others etc. I say motorway figures as these are less likely to include cases where high performance drivers have gone too fast round corners!
Firstly i would say GATSO's and other similar devices do not enforce but only facillitate punishment, as camera's dont stop the offence from occuring they just record it.
The Police enforce.
More reliance on police, less reliance on camera type technologies as the basis for enforcement.
I would like to see a more intelligent use of camera type technologies, and an end to the driving force linking revenue collection, safety measures and the politically motivated scamera partnerships. Safety ,revenue and politics dont mix.
Speed limits should be relevant to the section of road and set by an independent and technically qualified organisation. Councils, being political in origin, are not capable of making decision free from political bias. The Transport/Engineering departments in county councils are not much better, but i won't go there as that is a debate in itself.
The Police enforce.
More reliance on police, less reliance on camera type technologies as the basis for enforcement.
I would like to see a more intelligent use of camera type technologies, and an end to the driving force linking revenue collection, safety measures and the politically motivated scamera partnerships. Safety ,revenue and politics dont mix.
Speed limits should be relevant to the section of road and set by an independent and technically qualified organisation. Councils, being political in origin, are not capable of making decision free from political bias. The Transport/Engineering departments in county councils are not much better, but i won't go there as that is a debate in itself.
Im wound up by their hypocrisy. They say its for safety, while raking the dollars in, they say its for safety yet they park in dangerous locations and rake the dollars in.
The limits are NOT being properly investigated and implemented, theyre using a carpet bombing catch all technique to PUNISH, and thats the word, PUNISH drivers for being on the roads.
Its driven by the deep desire to control aspects of peoples lives, and to make as much money off of them to keep them under that control.
Safety dosent even enter into the argument, and it never will.
A road i know of was recently dropped from 50 to 40, and gatsos installed. Why? Cos some idiots decided to "go a racing" and they crashed and burned after hitting a hump in the road.
Thats the justification. yet, the ones who fried themselves were already outside of the speed limits, way out of them, but once again its ordinary everyday drivers who are taking the brunt of this enforcement mind control philosophy.
This is why i rant, why i kick and fight tooth and nail. Its why i DONT heed speed limits.
I will NOT be controlled or "altered" to fit in with their right and wrong POV's.
Neither should any of you.
The limits are NOT being properly investigated and implemented, theyre using a carpet bombing catch all technique to PUNISH, and thats the word, PUNISH drivers for being on the roads.
Its driven by the deep desire to control aspects of peoples lives, and to make as much money off of them to keep them under that control.
Safety dosent even enter into the argument, and it never will.
A road i know of was recently dropped from 50 to 40, and gatsos installed. Why? Cos some idiots decided to "go a racing" and they crashed and burned after hitting a hump in the road.
Thats the justification. yet, the ones who fried themselves were already outside of the speed limits, way out of them, but once again its ordinary everyday drivers who are taking the brunt of this enforcement mind control philosophy.
This is why i rant, why i kick and fight tooth and nail. Its why i DONT heed speed limits.
I will NOT be controlled or "altered" to fit in with their right and wrong POV's.
Neither should any of you.
loadofcods said:
I thought the courts 'enforced' the law, or is it a police state in GB now ?
Maybe I should know better than to use the polices own terminology, after all they call it "enforcement"
Police state? May be moving that way.. but this is going off topic. My original post was to ascertain what it is about speeding, limits, and yes I will say it "enforcement" that effects and annoys motorists so badly, to see if there is anything sensible and constructive that motorists could contribute to the issue.
loadofcods said:
Sorry to go off topic, but it just annoys me that they call it 'enforcement'! Anyway, feel better now... carry on...
Me too
There are so many, "spin" pc rubbish labels, people dont seem to want to call anything what it is anymore...and you are quite right it is annoying. It's the fact that the limits on most open roads are arbitrary (you are not inherently safe driving under the limit, nor are you inherently dangerous when you exceed them) and in most places it would be possible to safely exceed them most of the time yet they are being enforced more and more rigorously and harshly. It seems to me that I'm being got it because (a) the government has the power to do it if they choose, and there's precious little I can do to stop them, (b) it gives them an income and it's natural for them to grab any income they can get their hands on, and (c) I honestly think the government has a political desire to prevent us from having the use of private transport, regardles of whether this is actually justified on environmental or safety grounds. (I'm thinking about the central policy which requires local coucils to introduce anti-car policies, planning restrictions on parking allocation, subsidised public transport and so on.)
I accept that with increased speed comes increased risk, and in some situations where pedestrians are at risk very low speed limits (30 mph and lower) are appropriate. But on the open road speed does not strike me as a particularly significant factor compared to all the other factors. The focus is entirely on speed rather than danger, and I think this is fundamentally wrong.
>> Edited by GreenV8S on Wednesday 18th June 14:02
I accept that with increased speed comes increased risk, and in some situations where pedestrians are at risk very low speed limits (30 mph and lower) are appropriate. But on the open road speed does not strike me as a particularly significant factor compared to all the other factors. The focus is entirely on speed rather than danger, and I think this is fundamentally wrong.
>> Edited by GreenV8S on Wednesday 18th June 14:02
Driving back from Le Mans to the UK a couple of days ago...what annoys me about UK traffic management versus that in France...
In France, despite driving thousands of miles, I have never seen a speed camera.
Despite the thousands of Brits in the area to watch the race (at Le Mans) and driving home almost all at once, the policing was very low key and intelligently managed. (Making roads around Le Mans one way to let race traffic get away and good direction-giving etc) - no temporary speed cameras, or helicopters etc (which is often the case at UK race meetings).
Driving back on one of the many well-maintained two-lane roads, I came up to a line of traffic behind an artic.
There was a car coming in the opposite direction so I though I'd better wait 'till it went past before I overtook - as I couldn't tell for sure yet how fast it was approaching, however, a French driver behind me in a Laguna had other ideas.
He overtook, I knew he would probably not get past before the car coming in the opposite direction got to us, so I hung back to leave him some space to get in...anyway he went past a couple of cars in the convoy and forced his way in causing others to brake. He then overtook again and got past the artic. Then I went for it and got past the whole convoy...I was going quite a lot over the national speed limit to get past safely.
Half a mile up the road were a couple of police motorcylcists, waving the French driver and me in. Oh Cr@p / sweat / arse!
As soon as I turned in to their layby, they waved me back out, but kept the French driver in. Phew!
The only reason I can think they stopped the French driver was that, although he was travelling at the same speed as me, he was driving dangerously.
Now that's intelligent traffic management...full respect.
We all know that one of our "safety" cameras are not that clever and those who install them deserve no respect for their shallow thinking.
In France, despite driving thousands of miles, I have never seen a speed camera.
Despite the thousands of Brits in the area to watch the race (at Le Mans) and driving home almost all at once, the policing was very low key and intelligently managed. (Making roads around Le Mans one way to let race traffic get away and good direction-giving etc) - no temporary speed cameras, or helicopters etc (which is often the case at UK race meetings).
Driving back on one of the many well-maintained two-lane roads, I came up to a line of traffic behind an artic.
There was a car coming in the opposite direction so I though I'd better wait 'till it went past before I overtook - as I couldn't tell for sure yet how fast it was approaching, however, a French driver behind me in a Laguna had other ideas.
He overtook, I knew he would probably not get past before the car coming in the opposite direction got to us, so I hung back to leave him some space to get in...anyway he went past a couple of cars in the convoy and forced his way in causing others to brake. He then overtook again and got past the artic. Then I went for it and got past the whole convoy...I was going quite a lot over the national speed limit to get past safely.
Half a mile up the road were a couple of police motorcylcists, waving the French driver and me in. Oh Cr@p / sweat / arse!
As soon as I turned in to their layby, they waved me back out, but kept the French driver in. Phew!
The only reason I can think they stopped the French driver was that, although he was travelling at the same speed as me, he was driving dangerously.
Now that's intelligent traffic management...full respect.
We all know that one of our "safety" cameras are not that clever and those who install them deserve no respect for their shallow thinking.
It's cameras, pure and simple, that get on my tits. No problem with any of their other activities (except Madcop's excessive use of bold type 
)
I don't mind being stopped by Policemen, because even if they give you a ticket they explain why and usually give you a little lecture, which at least shows they care. The first two times I was stopped (for riding no-hands) they offered to take me home and to talk to my parents. The second time I was told I could have it "on the Dorset Police" and to "be careful" - to this day I can't understand why because I was being bloody stupid. The fourth time they gave me an NIP and an apology because they didn't feel they ought to be rigorously enforcing an empty dual carriageway but were under instructions.
You don't get that level of service from cameras.
) I don't mind being stopped by Policemen, because even if they give you a ticket they explain why and usually give you a little lecture, which at least shows they care. The first two times I was stopped (for riding no-hands) they offered to take me home and to talk to my parents. The second time I was told I could have it "on the Dorset Police" and to "be careful" - to this day I can't understand why because I was being bloody stupid. The fourth time they gave me an NIP and an apology because they didn't feel they ought to be rigorously enforcing an empty dual carriageway but were under instructions.
You don't get that level of service from cameras.
The thing that bugs me the most is the belief that cameras are the ONLY solution to the problem. Stable doors, horses etc....
Our roads are awfully maintained and in many cases appallingly designed. There's a notorious blackspot near me that has seen several fatal accidents - right turn accross a dual carriageway, which for years had NO traffic lights and grass 6 feet high on the central reservation. THAT'S what made it dangerous.
There seems to be no will to tackle the root problem, which in many cases is bad state of road repair, bad road design and layout, poor signage and bad lighting. Instead the blame is placed squarely on the motorist and the solution is "oh, lower the limit and chuck in a camera, that'll sort it". A bad road is still a bad road, no matter the speed.
If money were spent IMPROVING road layout at blackspots, building bypasses to cut down on traffic in villages, better signage, lighting, flexible speed limits (wet/dry for example) and an improved properly integrated public transportation system, then I'd have more respect for the people running the show.
Spent some time in Oz recently, and there was a new motorway built on the outskirts of Perth, which had a railway designed into the middle. Each m-way junction had a built in station and bus link, and you could use the train tickets on the bus network. THAT'S planning and design, not cutting traffic lanes, giving EMPTY buses priority over FULL cars and fining the bollocks off everyone.
Watford has a traffic problem, so what does the council do? Give permission for three new retail parks with NO train/bus link slap bang next to the worst bottleneck in town. Great thinking guys.
Our roads are awfully maintained and in many cases appallingly designed. There's a notorious blackspot near me that has seen several fatal accidents - right turn accross a dual carriageway, which for years had NO traffic lights and grass 6 feet high on the central reservation. THAT'S what made it dangerous.
There seems to be no will to tackle the root problem, which in many cases is bad state of road repair, bad road design and layout, poor signage and bad lighting. Instead the blame is placed squarely on the motorist and the solution is "oh, lower the limit and chuck in a camera, that'll sort it". A bad road is still a bad road, no matter the speed.
If money were spent IMPROVING road layout at blackspots, building bypasses to cut down on traffic in villages, better signage, lighting, flexible speed limits (wet/dry for example) and an improved properly integrated public transportation system, then I'd have more respect for the people running the show.
Spent some time in Oz recently, and there was a new motorway built on the outskirts of Perth, which had a railway designed into the middle. Each m-way junction had a built in station and bus link, and you could use the train tickets on the bus network. THAT'S planning and design, not cutting traffic lanes, giving EMPTY buses priority over FULL cars and fining the bollocks off everyone.
Watford has a traffic problem, so what does the council do? Give permission for three new retail parks with NO train/bus link slap bang next to the worst bottleneck in town. Great thinking guys.
I do not like speed cameras because they do not actually solve the issue of inappropriate use of speed. All you get is a letter through the post and then a fine and some points on your license. No education, no retraining, nothing
The whole scheme is not geared towards justice but towards making the process for fine collection easy. If each case had to go to court the cameras would dissappear and we would return to proper traffic management
The only other system that works in the same way is traffic wardens - enough said I think
As for speed limits, I think that motorway speed limits are too low for the technologically advanced type of cars we drive today whereas in built up areas they are fine
The whole scheme is not geared towards justice but towards making the process for fine collection easy. If each case had to go to court the cameras would dissappear and we would return to proper traffic management
The only other system that works in the same way is traffic wardens - enough said I think
As for speed limits, I think that motorway speed limits are too low for the technologically advanced type of cars we drive today whereas in built up areas they are fine
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