Discussion
Hi, can any BiB clarify under what circumstances DNA are taken?
My brother in law got a caution for shouting at some kid, on the grounds that the "kid was scared" (despite the fact that the little shit has been terrorising his neighbourhood..).
Naturally the kid got off scott free and everytime HE calls the police when this kid is pissing about they don't turn up for 2 days but thats life!
He got his DNA , fingerprints and photo taken- but all the references I found say that you only get DNA if you are arrested so what are the rules
"Criminal Justice Act 2003 provided the police with the additional power to take DNA samples and fingerprints, from all persons coming into police custody having been arrested, for a recordable offence"???
Edited to add- this was in his house, not at a police station and at no point was he arrested
My brother in law got a caution for shouting at some kid, on the grounds that the "kid was scared" (despite the fact that the little shit has been terrorising his neighbourhood..).
Naturally the kid got off scott free and everytime HE calls the police when this kid is pissing about they don't turn up for 2 days but thats life!
He got his DNA , fingerprints and photo taken- but all the references I found say that you only get DNA if you are arrested so what are the rules
"Criminal Justice Act 2003 provided the police with the additional power to take DNA samples and fingerprints, from all persons coming into police custody having been arrested, for a recordable offence"???
Edited to add- this was in his house, not at a police station and at no point was he arrested
Edited by stigproducts on Wednesday 3rd October 22:00
stigproducts said:
Hi, can any BiB clarify under what circumstances DNA are taken?
My brother in law got a caution for shouting at some kid, on the grounds that the "kid was scared" (despite the fact that the little shit has been terrorising his neighbourhood..).
Naturally the kid got off scott free and everytime HE calls the police when this kid is pissing about they don't turn up for 2 days but thats life!
He got his DNA , fingerprints and photo taken- but all the references I found say that you only get DNA if you are arrested so what are the rules
"Criminal Justice Act 2003 provided the police with the additional power to take DNA samples and fingerprints, from all persons coming into police custody having been arrested, for a recordable offence"???
Edited to add- this was in his house, not at a police station and at no point was he arrested
So they took his DNA, prints and photo in his house and gave him a caution when he wasn't under arrest?. My brother in law got a caution for shouting at some kid, on the grounds that the "kid was scared" (despite the fact that the little shit has been terrorising his neighbourhood..).
Naturally the kid got off scott free and everytime HE calls the police when this kid is pissing about they don't turn up for 2 days but thats life!
He got his DNA , fingerprints and photo taken- but all the references I found say that you only get DNA if you are arrested so what are the rules
"Criminal Justice Act 2003 provided the police with the additional power to take DNA samples and fingerprints, from all persons coming into police custody having been arrested, for a recordable offence"???
Edited to add- this was in his house, not at a police station and at no point was he arrested
Edited by stigproducts on Wednesday 3rd October 22:00
Not true mate, there's more to it than that.
Hi, that's exactly what happened, because I was there. I didn't think it was right- hence I hit the web looking for info.
Can anyone advise on what he should do?
Grrendubber- please could you explain the procedures? the whole thing is odd.
For example , he turned up at 10 am on a sat. and my sister in law answered the door in her dressing gown. He didn't introduce himself or show any ID and lauched stright into the questions about BiL- is that normal.
BTW this kids father is a police officer so I'm starting to suspect something is fishy
Can anyone advise on what he should do?
Grrendubber- please could you explain the procedures? the whole thing is odd.
For example , he turned up at 10 am on a sat. and my sister in law answered the door in her dressing gown. He didn't introduce himself or show any ID and lauched stright into the questions about BiL- is that normal.
BTW this kids father is a police officer so I'm starting to suspect something is fishy
Edited by stigproducts on Thursday 4th October 12:48
Raify said:
I understand that you can ask for your DNA record to be expunged, but the police are under no obligation to comply. So, whatever the circumstances of his 'arrest' or caution, it's a moot point.
It's great isn't it..I think these days Plod just take DNA as much as possible to get the old Database up and running so that they can sell it on behalf of HMG to insurance/pharmacy companies.
I think the point here is that biL wasn't arrested but his DNA was still taken- therefore not lawfull??
this is what we need some help with- is Caution a form of arrest and is the DNA lawfully taken under the circumstances described?
"Once lawfully obtained it is only in exceptional circumstances that the profile will be removed from the National DNA Database"
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/organisation...
this is what we need some help with- is Caution a form of arrest and is the DNA lawfully taken under the circumstances described?
"Once lawfully obtained it is only in exceptional circumstances that the profile will be removed from the National DNA Database"
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/organisation...
This somewhat disingenuous piece from the Home Office website on the National DNA Database:
Why are people who have not been convicted on the database?
Before 2001, the police could take DNA samples during investigations but had to destroy the samples and the records derived from them on the Database if the people concerned were acquitted or charges were not proceeded with.
The law was changed in 2001 to remove this requirement, and changed again in 2004 so that DNA samples could be taken from anyone arrested for a recordable offence and detained in a police station.
Notice that it glosses over the fact that samples can still be taken during investigations (and not just from those arrested), and these samples do not have to be destroyed.
Streaky
Why are people who have not been convicted on the database?
Before 2001, the police could take DNA samples during investigations but had to destroy the samples and the records derived from them on the Database if the people concerned were acquitted or charges were not proceeded with.
The law was changed in 2001 to remove this requirement, and changed again in 2004 so that DNA samples could be taken from anyone arrested for a recordable offence and detained in a police station.
Notice that it glosses over the fact that samples can still be taken during investigations (and not just from those arrested), and these samples do not have to be destroyed.
Streaky
Hi, yes they can, but consent is required from what i could find- this guy offered no consent form and said it was "home office guideleines that all people being investigated..".
There is something dodgy about the whole episode.
BiL has contacted legal advice that his firm offers and they have advised that he gets himself a lawyer and takes an action against the police. That is exactly what he has done.
The incredulous reply of Greendubber suggests to me that this is good advice.
My money is that BiB decided to put the frightners on him for messing with a fellow officer. Hopefully he can be brought to book for that misuse of his authority.
There is something dodgy about the whole episode.
BiL has contacted legal advice that his firm offers and they have advised that he gets himself a lawyer and takes an action against the police. That is exactly what he has done.
The incredulous reply of Greendubber suggests to me that this is good advice.
My money is that BiB decided to put the frightners on him for messing with a fellow officer. Hopefully he can be brought to book for that misuse of his authority.
stigproducts said:
My brother in law got a caution
http://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q562.htmhttp://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/usin...
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/custody...
DNA samples can be taken if the suspect is taken into custody because they are suspected of committing an offence.
Cautions may be offered where the suspect admits the offence (hence there is more than suspicion, there is admission of guilt).
Samples do NOT have to be destroyed if the suspect ACCEPTS a Caution for the offence. (PACE, s.64(1)–(3), as amended by the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001)
ergo - if it was a formal caution following admission of a recordable offence...DNA samples go on the database.
streaky said:
This somewhat disingenuous piece from the Home Office website on the National DNA Database:
Why are people who have not been convicted on the database?
Before 2001, the police could take DNA samples during investigations but had to destroy the samples and the records derived from them on the Database if the people concerned were acquitted or charges were not proceeded with.
The law was changed in 2001 to remove this requirement, and changed again in 2004 so that DNA samples could be taken from anyone arrested for a recordable offence and detained in a police station.
Notice that it glosses over the fact that samples can still be taken during investigations (and not just from those arrested), and these samples do not have to be destroyed.
Streaky
It would appear that the ECHR will soon be ruling on this appalling state of affairs. Fingers crossed for a favourable verdict.Why are people who have not been convicted on the database?
Before 2001, the police could take DNA samples during investigations but had to destroy the samples and the records derived from them on the Database if the people concerned were acquitted or charges were not proceeded with.
The law was changed in 2001 to remove this requirement, and changed again in 2004 so that DNA samples could be taken from anyone arrested for a recordable offence and detained in a police station.
Notice that it glosses over the fact that samples can still be taken during investigations (and not just from those arrested), and these samples do not have to be destroyed.
Streaky
marshalla said:
stigproducts said:
My brother in law got a caution
http://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q562.htmhttp://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/usin...
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/custody...
DNA samples can be taken if the suspect is taken into custody because they are suspected of committing an offence.
Cautions may be offered where the suspect admits the offence (hence there is more than suspicion, there is admission of guilt).
Samples do NOT have to be destroyed if the suspect ACCEPTS a Caution for the offence. (PACE, s.64(1)–(3), as amended by the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001)
ergo - if it was a formal caution following admission of a recordable offence...DNA samples go on the database.
marshalla said:
stigproducts said:
My brother in law got a caution
http://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q562.htmhttp://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/usin...
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/custody...
DNA samples can be taken if the suspect is taken into custody because they are suspected of committing an offence.
Cautions may be offered where the suspect admits the offence (hence there is more than suspicion, there is admission of guilt).
Samples do NOT have to be destroyed if the suspect ACCEPTS a Caution for the offence. (PACE, s.64(1)–(3), as amended by the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001)
ergo - if it was a formal caution following admission of a recordable offence...DNA samples go on the database.
stigproducts said:
Hi, yes they can, but consent is required from what i could find- ...
As a comment in passing, WRT children, since April 2004, anyone aged ten or above who is arrested in England or Wales can have their DNA and fingerprints taken without their consent, or that of their parents (implemented 2006).It has been suggested that children are being targeted with minor offences in order to populate the database. It's more probably the case that a fight in a playground gives rise to more than one detectable offence, thus padding the figures, and the obtaining of DNA is a bonus.
Streaky
Is it possible that the force in question is running a "trial" period of street bail/processing arrestees without attending the police station? If your brother in law was compliant it may be that the force is running this trial and there was no reason to take him to the police station after being arrested.
When you said they took his fingerprints and photo, how did they do this. Also what type of caution was it? and what was it for?
The only way you'll find out for sure is for your bro in law to contact the local station and ask about the procedures as he's confused about what happened.
When you said they took his fingerprints and photo, how did they do this. Also what type of caution was it? and what was it for?
The only way you'll find out for sure is for your bro in law to contact the local station and ask about the procedures as he's confused about what happened.
JM-S2K said:
Is it possible that the force in question is running a "trial" period of street bail/processing arrestees without attending the police station? If your brother in law was compliant it may be that the force is running this trial and there was no reason to take him to the police station after being arrested.
When you said they took his fingerprints and photo, how did they do this. Also what type of caution was it? and what was it for?
The only way you'll find out for sure is for your bro in law to contact the local station and ask about the procedures as he's confused about what happened.
He wasn't arrested. The guy even said when he arrived "don't worry, you're not going to be arrested or anything like that"When you said they took his fingerprints and photo, how did they do this. Also what type of caution was it? and what was it for?
The only way you'll find out for sure is for your bro in law to contact the local station and ask about the procedures as he's confused about what happened.
He had a digital camera and a sheet for the dabs and sheets of ink and swabs- it was all in a little pack.
The caution was for "common assult" and was described as a "police caution"
He's got an appointment with a lawyer with a view to making a complaint- let them contact the police station!
There is no need, indeed no power, to arrest someone if the matter can be cleared up without an arrest.
I have interviewed for many offences without arrest and reported for summons.
Giving a formal caution is an extension of this.
He must have admitted the offence to be eligible for a caution.
A Caution is treated the same as a conviction, hence his DNA prints and photo being taken
I have interviewed for many offences without arrest and reported for summons.
Giving a formal caution is an extension of this.
He must have admitted the offence to be eligible for a caution.
A Caution is treated the same as a conviction, hence his DNA prints and photo being taken
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