Postal Strikes

[mel]

Almost a whole week with screwed postal service, will this be taken into account on the 14 day rule? We all knew it was going to happen, alot of business has made alternative arrangements for urgent post but will the scammers still be able to say "well we posted it 1st class before day 14 so it should have got there in time"

[Glassman]

Good question.

[Conian]

When the UK has almost a week of no mail, people will start to find other ways of coping... phone calls, FAX, email, other postal carriers. The PO might just find that their not an essential of a service as they thought.

[10 Pence Short]

I don't think the enforcer's obligations change because Royal Mail choose to strike.

[EU_Foreigner]

Rule is "be served in 14 days". The scammers need to find alternatives to server the NIP within the required timescale.

They will lose a lot of cash because of the strike, as long as the recipients of the NIPs know their rights and don't just pay up !!!

[mark69sheer]

Conian said:

When the UK has almost a week of no mail, people will start to find other ways of coping... phone calls, FAX, email, other postal carriers. The PO might just find that their not an essential of a service as they thought.

Unfortunately they still are.

I am still awaiting last weeks Autosport I subscibe to.
And crucially some promotional material I have had printed to tie in with a launch.

There are other ways of sending but their 'door to door' facilities don't match the Royal mail.

For example a courier called to my house and I wasn't in I was then told I could have it resent , when I may not have been at home or to collect from their depot 15 miles away.
This is the crucial point.
When I collect missed mail from the Royal mail the nearest depot is only 2 miles away.

Some other postal services offer a discount for mail,
all they actually do is some of the post services sorting for them.
It still has to be delivered by royal mail for the last step. The door to door delivery.

There is the DX service but this is for business mail and not private housing.

[mel]

EU_Foreigner said:

Rule is "be served in 14 days". The scammers need to find alternatives to server the NIP within the required timescale.

They will lose a lot of cash because of the strike, as long as the recipients of the NIPs know their rights and don't just pay up !!!

But the case law they relly on shows that, 1st class post is deemed as a "reliable service" and as such if they can show they posted it withing the 14 days it is deemed as served under the 14 days + 1 for service. It's the fact that the case law could now be challenged due to a substantial change in so much as 1st class post is no longer a "reliable service" as they're all on strike, the point is the scammers knew the strike was coming so have they done anything about it? This could change the case law if challenged and force them to serve all future nips by recorded or registered post if 1st class is no longer reliable.

[JustinP1]

Conian said:

When the UK has almost a week of no mail, people will start to find other ways of coping... phone calls, FAX, email, other postal carriers. The PO might just find that their not an essential of a service as they thought.

Completely agreed.

As a business owner there would have been times in the past where things were tight enough where a week without income - cheques in the post - would have left us short.

Similarly, anyone who expects orders or booking through the post who they fulfil as they come in is also going to be twiddling their fingers.


What I cannot understand is the shortsightedness of the unions in this situation. The updates needed mean that Royal Mail is going to be shaken up - thats because as new competitors spring up with a brand new and efficient infrastructure the RM is going to be left behind - many would argue they already have.

So what is the answer?

Apparantly holding up the change as much as possible and put the loyal and dwindling customer base through a situation where they are forced to use competitors!?

I am very afraid that the actions in the long term will actually cause the loss of more jobs in total as the RM falls even further behind, than if they had not have just let the change happen.

[mark69sheer]

JustinP1 said:

Conian said:

When the UK has almost a week of no mail, people will start to find other ways of coping... phone calls, FAX, email, other postal carriers. The PO might just find that their not an essential of a service as they thought.

Completely agreed.

As a business owner there would have been times in the past where things were tight enough where a week without income - cheques in the post - would have left us short.

Similarly, anyone who expects orders or booking through the post who they fulfil as they come in is also going to be twiddling their fingers.


What I cannot understand is the shortsightedness of the unions in this situation. The updates needed mean that Royal Mail is going to be shaken up - thats because as new competitors spring up with a brand new and efficient infrastructure the RM is going to be left behind - many would argue they already have.

So what is the answer?

Apparantly holding up the change as much as possible and put the loyal and dwindling customer base through a situation where they are forced to use competitors!?

I am very afraid that the actions in the long term will actually cause the loss of more jobs in total as the RM falls even further behind, than if they had not have just let the change happen.

Union thinking doesn't allow for even one job to be sacrificed even if that shortsightedness results in even more jobs going ultimately as you point out.

I even deliver by hand locally rather than pay the £1.25 postage for large heavy letters.... and I know my goods will arrive safely.

So much for reducing carbon emmisions etc if everyone had to deliver by hand themselves.

[JustinP1]

mark69sheer said:

JustinP1 said:

Conian said:

When the UK has almost a week of no mail, people will start to find other ways of coping... phone calls, FAX, email, other postal carriers. The PO might just find that their not an essential of a service as they thought.

Completely agreed.

As a business owner there would have been times in the past where things were tight enough where a week without income - cheques in the post - would have left us short.

Similarly, anyone who expects orders or booking through the post who they fulfil as they come in is also going to be twiddling their fingers.


What I cannot understand is the shortsightedness of the unions in this situation. The updates needed mean that Royal Mail is going to be shaken up - thats because as new competitors spring up with a brand new and efficient infrastructure the RM is going to be left behind - many would argue they already have.

So what is the answer?

Apparantly holding up the change as much as possible and put the loyal and dwindling customer base through a situation where they are forced to use competitors!?

I am very afraid that the actions in the long term will actually cause the loss of more jobs in total as the RM falls even further behind, than if they had not have just let the change happen.

Union thinking doesn't allow for even one job to be sacrificed even if that shortsightedness results in even more jobs going ultimately as you point out.

I even deliver by hand locally rather than pay the £1.25 postage for large heavy letters.... and I know my goods will arrive safely.

So much for reducing carbon emmisions etc if everyone had to deliver by hand themselves.

On a side note...thats actually the reason that Warrington Borough Council give for not collecting recyclable materials such as plastics, steel, aluminium and glass.

Apparantly it is best that I do an 8 mile round trip in my car.... "HELLO........!!!!????"

[Flat in Fifth]

Ancilliary question.

Seems to me the 14 day rule will apply, as in proof of posting equals documents served as discussed ad nauseam.

How about the 28 days to reply rule though?

[EU_Foreigner]

Don't agree. How can it be deemed served within the 14 days if you know there is a strike going on?

[mark69sheer]

EU_Foreigner said:

Don't agree. How can it be deemed served within the 14 days if you know there is a strike going on?

even with the strike in operation I am sure even though I haven't recieved my Autosport from last Thursday yet it will arrive within 14 days.

Even if the NIP arrives 13 days after it is posted it will still be within the 14 day window.

[mel]

That's not the point, the point is if it's dated on the 12th day for example and arrives on the 17th which is perfectly feasible.

[SS2.]

Flat in Fifth said:

Seems to me the 14 day rule will apply, as in proof of posting equals documents served as discussed ad nauseam.

That largely depends upon whether the courts agree that the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 - or at least to the 1994 amendment which allows for service to be effected by first class post..

Interpretation Act 1978 said:

7. Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression "give" or "send" or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

Accordingly, the scammers would have to take into consideration postal strikes, weekends, bank holidays etc etc.

Flat in Fifth said:

How about the 28 days to reply rule though ?

Its 28 days from receipt of the NIP, not from when it was posted..

[Boosted LS1]

I think their obligation is simply to post it first class within 14 days.

You then have to prove you never received it to stop the whole process dead in it's tracks, so use some imagination, take a holiday for a fortnight or whatever. Mail gets lost all the time. If it gets sent back to the scammers intact after 14 days it'll be way to late to post out another nip.

Don't lie but I can't see why 'evading service' tactics couldn't be used. Let them do a bit of work.

[Flat in Fifth]

SS2. said:

Flat in Fifth said:

Seems to me the 14 day rule will apply, as in proof of posting equals documents served as discussed ad nauseam.

That largely depends upon whether the courts agree that the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 - or at least to the 1994 amendment which allows for service to be effected by first class post..

Interpretation Act 1978 said:

7. Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression "give" or "send" or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

Accordingly, the scammers would have to take into consideration postal strikes, weekends, bank holidays etc etc.

I thought the courts did indeed take that a document is served if the scammers can produce a record which says we posted it on this day.

Of course unless the contrary is proved. Unless the letter is postmarked outside the allowed time then that is only the way a contrary can be proved. Non receipt cannot be proven, of course a sworn statement can be made which should, in theory, counter the record of posting at scamps HQ but will it in practice? Depends upon the magistrates on the day, an uncertain and unsatisfactory situation.

SS2. said:

Flat in Fifth said:

How about the 28 days to reply rule though ?

Its 28 days from receipt of the NIP, not from when it was posted..

Maybe I'm missing something but it just seems to me that again the dog's breakfast will get worse.

Let's face it if NoIPs were sent out using recorded delivery then there is an independant record of transmission and receipt, or not as the case may be.

Thus the 28 day time line can start ticking from the recorded date of receipt.

With the postal strike, what are they going to do? "Well we posted it on 1st November 2007" Then allow 14 days plus what? Start the 28 days from when?

It all assumes assumes assumes. With the onus on the accused to prove that something didn't happen when there is a perfectly serviceable * system to keep track.

What I'm trying to say is that the whole system of NoIPs supporting electronic enforcement is built on sand, and when Royal Mail shovels the sand away it should collapse. However I honestly believe that the scamps and courts will bury their heads in said sand and just carry on as if everything is the same.

• * Yes I know recorded delivery is an expensive joke and I never use it, but use Special Delivery in practice, but the logic follows.

[Boosted LS1]

FIF said,

" Non receipt cannot be proven, of course a sworn statement can be made which should, in theory, counter the record of posting at scamps HQ but will it in practice? Depends upon the magistrates on the day, an uncertain and unsatisfactory situation"

But non receipt can be proved especially if the NIP is returned to the scammers by the PO. Or, if you could prove you were away, or if somebody else admitted to having received your mail etc. Or if you have no mailbox for a fortnight or they can't get on your land because of the Rotty's which you deployed. I'm sure they would be stuck if people just didn't receive the NIP's in the first place plus they wouldn't have time to resend them? What do you think?

[over_the_hill]

Boosted LS1 said:

But non receipt can be proved especially if the NIP is returned to the scammers by the PO.

You will need to a) Prove it has been returned undelivered or b) Get CamPrats to admit it has been returned. a) tricky, b) unlikely

Boosted LS1 said:

Or, if you could prove you were away

As long as it has come through your letterbox with a valid postmark I doubt if being away would help.

Boosted LS1 said:

or if somebody else admitted to having received your mail etc.

They may themselves be committing an Offence by holding on to mail not addressed to them unless returned to sender immediately.
If addressed to Mr J Smith, 1 Any Street, something along the lines of "Return to Sender. Delivered to 2 Any Street. J Smith not at this
address" may work.

Boosted LS1 said:

Or if you have no mailbox for a fortnight

Don't think there is any requirement to have a post box / letter box so may be worth a go.

Boosted LS1 said:

or they can't get on your land because of the Rotty's which you deployed.

If dogs are that scary I don't think I would want to get on my land either !!

[SS2.]

Flat in Fifth said:

I thought the courts did indeed take that a document is served if the scammers can produce a record which says we posted it on this day.

I am not aware of a binding precedent which provides that posting = served, despite what the scammers would have us believe.

Flat in Fifth said:

Depends upon the magistrates on the day, an uncertain and unsatisfactory situation.

Absolutely agree - it can be a lottery in our Magistrates' Court. In fairness, the Clerk is probably the most influential in terms of swaying the Magistrates one way or the other.

Flat in Fifth said:

Let's face it if NoIPs were sent out using recorded delivery then there is an independant record of transmission and receipt, or not as the case may be.

And a NoIP issued by Recorded Delivery is deemed 'served' even if it is returned to the scammers as undelivered or for any reason not received by the accused.

Even the ACPO state that recorded delivery should be used for the initial NoIP 'to ensure good service'..

Flat in Fifth said:

However I honestly believe that the scamps and courts will bury their heads in said sand and just carry on as if everything is the same.

Agreed. Until someone is prepared to take them all the way to the High Court..