So we're are agreed then, the plod suck ?
Discussion
Posted in response to a Boy in Blue who has finally hung his keyboard up, fed up with abuse on this forum. The abuse in spite of his going beyond the call of duty, offering help & advice to members of the PH community.
Clearly just the fact this chap was happy to stick his head up above the parapet means he was probably one of the good guys. I`ve not read any of his posts but his comment "it`s not speed that kills but inappropriate speed that kills" shows he`s in tune with reality. The fact that he had a TVR product in his Internet "handle" means he`s not quite all there but we won`t hold that against him
So why is it that in general terms we all hate plod. Many of my customers wear the uniform and seem fine. I even have friends that used to wear the uniform and they are fine. In fact generally on an individual level most coppers are OK. You`d share a couple of pints with them, drive home pissed together (ONLY JOKING !!), chat to them at a party and indeed treat them as you would any other human being.
The problem is that their profession attracts a minority of people who are unfortunately the most prolific in terms of upsetting the community. Those people don`t necessarily have to be in direct contact with the public, they can just as easily be decision makers, look a Richard Brunstrom for instance. He has done more to alienate the Police than probably anyone else in the history of the force, he has also cost the Welsh economy millions of pounds as people avoid the place for fear of being caught doing 75mph on the motorway, (although in fairness he`s trying to re-dress the balance by legalising Heroin and crack cocaine in the valleys).
The problem however isn`t with these individual bad eggs (who are actually doing nothing wrong, they`re just doing their jobs particularly efficiently), it`s with a Police system that doesn`t look at it`s self and question whether it is serving the needs of it`s employers. Us. Of course it`s not just the police force, it`s any part of the civil service - DVLA are a particularly class act !
So rather than hounding individual BiB`s out of the PH town we should be giving them all the support we can. Sure we won`t appreciate all their views, if Mr B decided to come on here and post then there may be the odd occasion when their views are possibly a little wayward, but hopefully they add balance to the debate.
Above all if BiB`s with reasoned views are supported by us and defended by us when they get hauled before their superiors for posting on here then eventually the people at the top of the force will be those very people who think like the rest of us.
But then what do I know
Henry
Clearly just the fact this chap was happy to stick his head up above the parapet means he was probably one of the good guys. I`ve not read any of his posts but his comment "it`s not speed that kills but inappropriate speed that kills" shows he`s in tune with reality. The fact that he had a TVR product in his Internet "handle" means he`s not quite all there but we won`t hold that against him
So why is it that in general terms we all hate plod. Many of my customers wear the uniform and seem fine. I even have friends that used to wear the uniform and they are fine. In fact generally on an individual level most coppers are OK. You`d share a couple of pints with them, drive home pissed together (ONLY JOKING !!), chat to them at a party and indeed treat them as you would any other human being.
The problem is that their profession attracts a minority of people who are unfortunately the most prolific in terms of upsetting the community. Those people don`t necessarily have to be in direct contact with the public, they can just as easily be decision makers, look a Richard Brunstrom for instance. He has done more to alienate the Police than probably anyone else in the history of the force, he has also cost the Welsh economy millions of pounds as people avoid the place for fear of being caught doing 75mph on the motorway, (although in fairness he`s trying to re-dress the balance by legalising Heroin and crack cocaine in the valleys).
The problem however isn`t with these individual bad eggs (who are actually doing nothing wrong, they`re just doing their jobs particularly efficiently), it`s with a Police system that doesn`t look at it`s self and question whether it is serving the needs of it`s employers. Us. Of course it`s not just the police force, it`s any part of the civil service - DVLA are a particularly class act !
So rather than hounding individual BiB`s out of the PH town we should be giving them all the support we can. Sure we won`t appreciate all their views, if Mr B decided to come on here and post then there may be the odd occasion when their views are possibly a little wayward, but hopefully they add balance to the debate.
Above all if BiB`s with reasoned views are supported by us and defended by us when they get hauled before their superiors for posting on here then eventually the people at the top of the force will be those very people who think like the rest of us.
But then what do I know
Henry
Sorry Henry, on evidence of interactions you hear about - you can't help but feel the 'minority' is the actual good guys that arent just trying to hit targets, but make the streets a safer place.
You cant help but blame the goverment, seeing how they think everything can be summed up with a points system, and while targets are good, when the motorist is the soft target thats easy to get your bonus - well we all know how that ends.
I've met some good coppers - seen some doing a damn fine job - and the law of the internet forum is its a rareity to hear about things when they are going well (whether it be a car or a service) but to start shouting loudly when they are not.
You cant help but blame the goverment, seeing how they think everything can be summed up with a points system, and while targets are good, when the motorist is the soft target thats easy to get your bonus - well we all know how that ends.
I've met some good coppers - seen some doing a damn fine job - and the law of the internet forum is its a rareity to hear about things when they are going well (whether it be a car or a service) but to start shouting loudly when they are not.
I agree with most of that.
The case in point being:
1) The BiB that post on here are without doubt the 'good ones'.
2) There are some t**ts on here, expecially recently who seem to be more unappreciative and abusive than is necessary.
As to the wider issue I agree that public opinion of the police as a group is as low as I can remember. Unfortunately the 'good guys' still have to work to the same rules. Maybe it is petty laws, speed cameras marked up as 'police cameras' etc start this opinion. Unfortunately even the 'good guys' have to wear the same uniform.
While i will try to keep politics out of this, I don't want to plagerise without naming the source but David Cameron's recent speech really summed it up quite well. He put forward two stories. The first was that a mum kept having her cash stolen by her teenager. After repremanding him herself with little effect she wanted to get the local friendly bobby involved.
He said he would, but... he would have to report a crime detected, a crime investigated and a crime solved... and of course do all of the paperwork involved for the records. The result - no 'quiet word'.
The second story was from an elderly lady who rang 999 to inform them that there was a burglar in her house downstairs. She was told that there were no cars in her area to respond and to lock herself in her room until the burglar went away!? After five minutes she rang 999 again and told them to cancel what she said with the problem with the burglar as she had just shot him!
Lo and behold, five minutes later three police cars scream up and catch the burglar still in the house! The police chief (rank ommitted as I can't remember) storms up the stairs and repremants the old lady for the hoax - "Whats going on! You said that you had shot him!".
He got the reply, "Yes... and you said you had no cars...."
I think this sums up the opinion of most very well. The public don't feel as protected as they should. This is a double edged sword though as they also feel ostracised for minor offenced which they are punished more heavily for than 'scallies' who commit continuous crimes.
Unfortunately some of that is wrongly vented here to those who may not agree with the policies but wear the same uniform. I just hope in future that some of the people on here learn to know the difference...
The case in point being:
1) The BiB that post on here are without doubt the 'good ones'.
2) There are some t**ts on here, expecially recently who seem to be more unappreciative and abusive than is necessary.
As to the wider issue I agree that public opinion of the police as a group is as low as I can remember. Unfortunately the 'good guys' still have to work to the same rules. Maybe it is petty laws, speed cameras marked up as 'police cameras' etc start this opinion. Unfortunately even the 'good guys' have to wear the same uniform.
While i will try to keep politics out of this, I don't want to plagerise without naming the source but David Cameron's recent speech really summed it up quite well. He put forward two stories. The first was that a mum kept having her cash stolen by her teenager. After repremanding him herself with little effect she wanted to get the local friendly bobby involved.
He said he would, but... he would have to report a crime detected, a crime investigated and a crime solved... and of course do all of the paperwork involved for the records. The result - no 'quiet word'.
The second story was from an elderly lady who rang 999 to inform them that there was a burglar in her house downstairs. She was told that there were no cars in her area to respond and to lock herself in her room until the burglar went away!? After five minutes she rang 999 again and told them to cancel what she said with the problem with the burglar as she had just shot him!
Lo and behold, five minutes later three police cars scream up and catch the burglar still in the house! The police chief (rank ommitted as I can't remember) storms up the stairs and repremants the old lady for the hoax - "Whats going on! You said that you had shot him!".
He got the reply, "Yes... and you said you had no cars...."
I think this sums up the opinion of most very well. The public don't feel as protected as they should. This is a double edged sword though as they also feel ostracised for minor offenced which they are punished more heavily for than 'scallies' who commit continuous crimes.
Unfortunately some of that is wrongly vented here to those who may not agree with the policies but wear the same uniform. I just hope in future that some of the people on here learn to know the difference...
Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 11th October 11:10
I have three very good friends who ae either 'in the job' or used to be.
The first was a Chief Super in the Met. He took an early retirement package and now feels that the entire emphasis is wrong and that the politicians have caused this change. He is also very critical of the Chief Constables and the various Police Authorities for allowing this to happen.
The second friend is a serving Met. Chief Inspector. He is now in his 50's and is just hanging on until he can retire with his nice pension. He is taking as many courses as he can and trying to improve his rank to maximise his eventual pension. Is he dissillusioned? Oh, yes, he really is and has commented that 'uman Rights, elfnsafety and political correctness have largely destroyed the service he joined so many years ago. He says that he just 'plays along' with the political game which policing has now become, takes his salary and 'keeps his nose clean'.
The third friend got so unhappy that he left and now runs a professional motor sport team.
I do feel so sorry for the officers 'at the coal face'. Most, I know, joined because they wanted to do something to make a difference, but they have ended up having to support the politics of the CC's and politicians, filling in endless paperwork and trying to aviod making a minor error of judgement which could ruin their career.
The first was a Chief Super in the Met. He took an early retirement package and now feels that the entire emphasis is wrong and that the politicians have caused this change. He is also very critical of the Chief Constables and the various Police Authorities for allowing this to happen.
The second friend is a serving Met. Chief Inspector. He is now in his 50's and is just hanging on until he can retire with his nice pension. He is taking as many courses as he can and trying to improve his rank to maximise his eventual pension. Is he dissillusioned? Oh, yes, he really is and has commented that 'uman Rights, elfnsafety and political correctness have largely destroyed the service he joined so many years ago. He says that he just 'plays along' with the political game which policing has now become, takes his salary and 'keeps his nose clean'.
The third friend got so unhappy that he left and now runs a professional motor sport team.
I do feel so sorry for the officers 'at the coal face'. Most, I know, joined because they wanted to do something to make a difference, but they have ended up having to support the politics of the CC's and politicians, filling in endless paperwork and trying to aviod making a minor error of judgement which could ruin their career.
PetrolTed said:
I largely agree with your comments Henry, but I think your title is misrepresents what you're saying.
Well if I`d posted "I think plod are great everyone would think I was gay, or do I mean Ginger (beer)!Of course it`s a political issue. I think it`s also a reflection of the times we live in. We, or certainly our media like statistics. Our politicians structure their actions to massage statistics.
Once again reality and the individual get morphed into a bit of binary code in a computer.
There was a time when restaurants used to employ chefs you know! I wonder how many your local Pizza Hut, Harvester, & the like employ.
If you fancy winning the next election all you need to do is put chefs back in restaurants, police back in charge of policing, doctors back in charge of hospoitals and judges in charge of courts. Then concentrate on correlating people`s wants & needs as well as devising fair ways to raise the necessary revenue to fund everything.
For sure when you give someone a uniform it will always bring out the worst in some but this should be a supportive enviroment for the good guys, I would imagine they have a hard enough time battling the system at work.
Henry
More in tune with these posts - bad law from Government, stupid enforcement required by Government, paperwork keeping BiB from doing their job.
Not had much grief myself, generally good service and the odd "bad apple" I hope I have seen in context. I have known, and still do, several BiB most of whom are OK guys but one is a "little hitler" and (my view) should not be doing that job.
Remember, people pass 150 BiB in a year with no problem but tell you one story about one bad experience 150 times. It is therefore easy to see an exagerated picture of over-zealous behaviour.
Finally, I do notice that the level of abusive posts has increased lately, not for the good of the forum.
Not had much grief myself, generally good service and the odd "bad apple" I hope I have seen in context. I have known, and still do, several BiB most of whom are OK guys but one is a "little hitler" and (my view) should not be doing that job.
Remember, people pass 150 BiB in a year with no problem but tell you one story about one bad experience 150 times. It is therefore easy to see an exagerated picture of over-zealous behaviour.
Finally, I do notice that the level of abusive posts has increased lately, not for the good of the forum.
Henry-F said:
So why is it that in general terms we all hate plod.
Targets.Set by t
t chief constables and politicians.A policeman today is chasing crime targets.
Twenty years ago they were chasing criminals.
Just another shit side of neo-con labour, busy chasing oil wars and smashing peoples pensions to care a jot about the country. You can see the difference in culture in europe, politicians are still corrupt of course, but they also have a sense of pride in where they live and the services available.
Here the political I'm-all-right-jack and I-blindly-follow-the-party-whip mantra gives us a nation first ruled over by a dangerous imbecile, followed by someone whose best claim to fame was taxing pensions out of existence and the creation of the lunatic tax credit scheme. Idiot.
Cooperman said:
I have three very good friends who ae either 'in the job' or used to be.....
I do find this description of the life of a police officer disingenuous. The police service is both at the forefront of political correctness and the vanguard of some of the most conservative practices found in all of public service. Perhaps it is because police officers are by nature immensely conservative that they find it difficult to adapt to change and how one should police a changing world.
To illustrate, it was not the CPS that wished to investigate Channel 4 over its programme on a Birmingham mosque and the term LGBT originated in the police service and is still regarded with considerable derision outside of that world. The conservatism should speak for itself, though I’m happy to elaborate if it would help.
So, when I read that a chief super in the Met is unhappy with political control of a public service, I’m really not that impressed. I have a vivid memory of senior officers’ opposition to the establishment of the Metropolitan Police Authority but, is there really anything peculiar about people wishing to have an accountable police force with an elected authority controlling it?
Or another who was so disillusioned that he left the service and now manages a racing team? Rather, it looks to me like his desire to be a policeman had waned and his interests had changed.
It is often the case that people who work in large organisations dislike their jobs, even hate their employer and in that police officers are no different to the rest of us. Disillusionment is merely one way of expressing it.
At the moment as per your title yes the police suck.
And before you say it. . .
at this point I could qualify that with well some are good and they do a good job.(which they do)
But It sticks in my craw to say that because I have only ever recieved universally bad service. I hope one day I am proved wrong and the Bib make me eat humble pie but at the moment the whole thing has gone tits up and pear shaped and unless we let them know how peed off we are nothing will change.
And why shouldn't we use an internet forum to vent our spleen.
I could say with some certainty that if I voiced my complaints to a copper face to face I would be arrested. And that is not a false claim.
I had an employee who was knocked off his bike by a motorist.
I spoke to the employee who said that the car overtook him then turned left into him.
The motorist claimed he hadn't seen the cyclist and yet he had to overtake him before turning left so if that was the case he would have run over him before the corner.
Anyway this plod came to my factory to say that no further action would be taken against the driver.
This plod turned up on my property with his tunic undone , no headgear but a gelled spike on his head , sleeves rolled up and cheweing gum.
Well I said to my employee you didn't expect any help from these tossers did you?
At which I was pulled to one side and threatened with arrest.
WTF are you talking about I said. My employee is knocked off his bike and you turn up here with the glib remark that nothing will be done. I explained how can the motorist claim he didn't see him if he had allready had to drive round him. I told him a lady had helped him up who lived at the junction.
The upshot....
The lady testifies , the driver geta a due care and my employee received £1200 compensation.
So I will keep banging on until the system improves and if people leave the forum instead of wondering why people are so pissed off then thats just head in the sand isn't it.
Why not go back to his superiors and say . . we have to do something public opinion has really turned against us.
You see with your poor detection rate you need J Public to tell you as much as he knows but how many people now both don't bother reporting crime anymore because nothing is done or won't go out of their way to help the police because 'they never do anything for me'.
And before you say it. . .
at this point I could qualify that with well some are good and they do a good job.(which they do)
But It sticks in my craw to say that because I have only ever recieved universally bad service. I hope one day I am proved wrong and the Bib make me eat humble pie but at the moment the whole thing has gone tits up and pear shaped and unless we let them know how peed off we are nothing will change.
And why shouldn't we use an internet forum to vent our spleen.
I could say with some certainty that if I voiced my complaints to a copper face to face I would be arrested. And that is not a false claim.
I had an employee who was knocked off his bike by a motorist.
I spoke to the employee who said that the car overtook him then turned left into him.
The motorist claimed he hadn't seen the cyclist and yet he had to overtake him before turning left so if that was the case he would have run over him before the corner.
Anyway this plod came to my factory to say that no further action would be taken against the driver.
This plod turned up on my property with his tunic undone , no headgear but a gelled spike on his head , sleeves rolled up and cheweing gum.
Well I said to my employee you didn't expect any help from these tossers did you?
At which I was pulled to one side and threatened with arrest.
WTF are you talking about I said. My employee is knocked off his bike and you turn up here with the glib remark that nothing will be done. I explained how can the motorist claim he didn't see him if he had allready had to drive round him. I told him a lady had helped him up who lived at the junction.
The upshot....
The lady testifies , the driver geta a due care and my employee received £1200 compensation.
So I will keep banging on until the system improves and if people leave the forum instead of wondering why people are so pissed off then thats just head in the sand isn't it.
Why not go back to his superiors and say . . we have to do something public opinion has really turned against us.
You see with your poor detection rate you need J Public to tell you as much as he knows but how many people now both don't bother reporting crime anymore because nothing is done or won't go out of their way to help the police because 'they never do anything for me'.
Globulator said:
A policeman today is chasing crime targets.
Twenty years ago they were chasing criminals...
...and framing Irishmen. And kicking Blair Peach to death. And provoking riots due to misguided use of sus laws.Twenty years ago they were chasing criminals...
Maybe us male, white, middle class, middle aged lot felt "better protected" several decades ago, but not sure that is universal.
Without doubt the level of paper generation and overbearing political correctness has gone too far.
But that does not mean we should dream wistfully of the Gene Hunt era.
Noger said:
Globulator said:
A policeman today is chasing crime targets.
Twenty years ago they were chasing criminals...
...and framing Irishmen. And kicking Blair Peach to death. And provoking riots due to misguided use of sus laws.Twenty years ago they were chasing criminals...
Maybe us male, white, middle class, middle aged lot felt "better protected" several decades ago, but not sure that is universal.
Without doubt the level of paper generation and overbearing political correctness has gone too far.
But that does not mean we should dream wistfully of the Gene Hunt era.
Certainly crime rates were lower. Because everyone expectations about good behaviour were different.
Society has bred more criminals wether thats downloading music on limewire or buying cheap dvd's.
People are morally bankrupt these days.
The causes?
single parent families.
The allowance of drugs for 'personal use'
Lack of Jail space.
weak sentencing
The removal of corporal punishment in schools
a lack of accountability in public life from The PM down to the schoolteacher.
Noger said:
Maybe us male, white, middle class, middle aged lot felt "better protected" several decades ago, but not sure that is universal.
We would have been kids then You will always get a cross-section of society in the police, from bully tossers people hated at school to intelligent and fair minded individuals.
Given the trouble at G7 type meetings I feel the police still do spark unnecessary riots, and the 'government' removing all other means of protest also invites that.
Sadly today the political bend of the force can I feel turn well meaning police recruits into cynical numbers/targets people dissillusioned with the system, i.e. I think it used to be easier to be a good policeman in the past, than today.
I know of more than one person this has happened to, too much emphasis of political correctness and protecting criminals rights, together with mugging the tax paying public with speed trap cameras.
IMO speed cameras have made a huge difference to how people view the police. Go 7mph too fast on a wide road and it's instant 'justice'. Have a crime committed against you and 'theres really nothing we can do sir', or to translate:
'it's too difficult and we can't be bothered for that crime, we only have to wait 5 minutes and we'll 'solve' a crime anyway, on the road outside with our nice new camera'.
Please remember we should all be careful to direct our abuse where it is deserved, AND give praise where and when it is deserved.
I've had some very good service from out local BiB, and I've had the misfortune to interact with some right idiots from our local BiB. As a result of the idiots, (and other things) my view of the overall system is somewhat poor, but I reserve the right to state that there are some bloody good coppers in it. We should feel sorry for them, and shout out our support for them against the stupid PC target setting, and the red tape that binds them up, whilst exposing the bad apples, and protesting as loudly as we can about the way in which many of us feel let down. Any truly good copper will recognise the problems with the overall system because they make his or her job so much more difficult.
I've had some very good service from out local BiB, and I've had the misfortune to interact with some right idiots from our local BiB. As a result of the idiots, (and other things) my view of the overall system is somewhat poor, but I reserve the right to state that there are some bloody good coppers in it. We should feel sorry for them, and shout out our support for them against the stupid PC target setting, and the red tape that binds them up, whilst exposing the bad apples, and protesting as loudly as we can about the way in which many of us feel let down. Any truly good copper will recognise the problems with the overall system because they make his or her job so much more difficult.
I've had universally good experiences when meeting the police.
In the last few years:
- came home to find some scrote had attempted to break into my house. Called the local police station just to register the crime, not expecting anything to happen. Police came round about an hour later to look at the evidence (found a footprint), and organised a crime prevention officer.
- ex-gf's car broken into during the night. Again, called just to register the crime, police came out within the hour and found blood on the car.
- pulled over for speeding (bang to rights), was dealt with professionally and with courtesy. I deserved to be given a far bigger bollocking.
- discovered accountant had been writing out company cheques to himself and forging the signatures (badly). Presented the police with the evidence, they've frozen his assets and the case is currently with the crown court. I wish the CPS were as half as efficient as the police...
Luckily I've never had to test their emergency response
In the last few years:
- came home to find some scrote had attempted to break into my house. Called the local police station just to register the crime, not expecting anything to happen. Police came round about an hour later to look at the evidence (found a footprint), and organised a crime prevention officer.
- ex-gf's car broken into during the night. Again, called just to register the crime, police came out within the hour and found blood on the car.
- pulled over for speeding (bang to rights), was dealt with professionally and with courtesy. I deserved to be given a far bigger bollocking.
- discovered accountant had been writing out company cheques to himself and forging the signatures (badly). Presented the police with the evidence, they've frozen his assets and the case is currently with the crown court. I wish the CPS were as half as efficient as the police...
Luckily I've never had to test their emergency response
Government = Set the laws, tell the Police what to do.
Police = Do what they're told by Government.
There's no point in constantly trashing the Police when they're just the enforcers of laws made by other people.
The ones who complain about the Police are often the same ones who say they won't vote because it won't make a difference. Oh the irony.
Police = Do what they're told by Government.
There's no point in constantly trashing the Police when they're just the enforcers of laws made by other people.
The ones who complain about the Police are often the same ones who say they won't vote because it won't make a difference. Oh the irony.
10 Pence Short said:
Government = Set the laws, tell the Police what to do.
Police = Do what they're told by Government.
There's no point in constantly trashing the Police when they're just the enforcers of laws made by other people.
The ones who complain about the Police are often the same ones who say they won't vote because it won't make a difference. Oh the irony.
Your implication is that the Police no longer have any discretion, or choice about the style of the Policing. That could be the root cause of the complaints. I think I prefer Gene Hunt to that.Police = Do what they're told by Government.
There's no point in constantly trashing the Police when they're just the enforcers of laws made by other people.
The ones who complain about the Police are often the same ones who say they won't vote because it won't make a difference. Oh the irony.
The police should be appolitical and simply enforce the laws of the land.
However the goverments make the laws.
and when budgets are paid out for 'detected' crimes then the easy crimes will come first.
I have a horrendouse experience of how a detected crime logged on a computer can cause the police to act like complete morons who will then push to keep that crime logged even if there was no crime in the first place.
However the goverments make the laws.
and when budgets are paid out for 'detected' crimes then the easy crimes will come first.
I have a horrendouse experience of how a detected crime logged on a computer can cause the police to act like complete morons who will then push to keep that crime logged even if there was no crime in the first place.
From what I can see the Police have less and less descretion about how they Police. Top down targets and political decisions tend to take away a lot of power from forces. Forces want to appear to be doing well in KPIs, so that's what they target policing towards.
You can always take it down to a personal level, for example the copper who warns you for speeding instead of booking you, but those things are as much about the seriousness of the offence, the need to hit targets and the 'attitude test' as anything else.
If people want to generalise about why the Police 'suck', they should be prepared to ask why?
You can always take it down to a personal level, for example the copper who warns you for speeding instead of booking you, but those things are as much about the seriousness of the offence, the need to hit targets and the 'attitude test' as anything else.
If people want to generalise about why the Police 'suck', they should be prepared to ask why?
s2art said:
Your implication is that the Police no longer have any discretion, or choice about the style of the Policing.
Increasingly, this is the case.If a crime is reported, we HAVE to arrest any known suspect, beacuse they MIGHT admit to it, therfore that crime can be detected. This is even if the AP doesn't want anything doing, they just want it logging.
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