RE: Will speeding fine blunder cost £20m?
Monday 15th October 2007
MILLIONS of pounds in fines may be refunded after a landmark ruling found several speed limits on Hampshire's roads are not legally enforceable.
Experts say a judge's decision opens the door to thousands of motorists to claim their money back, but that could be just the tip of the iceberg.
District Judge Philip Gillibrand dismissed the last of 14 test cases against motorists allegedly caught speeding along the A27 in and around Fareham.
Will speeding fine blunder cost £20m?
Incorrect sign positioning could mean refund for many
Experts say a judge's decision opens the door to thousands of motorists to claim their money back, but that could be just the tip of the iceberg.
District Judge Philip Gillibrand dismissed the last of 14 test cases against motorists allegedly caught speeding along the A27 in and around Fareham.
He ruled that simple errors in the way signs were positioned meant the speed limits essentially had no backing in law.
Legal experts who uncovered the failings say they have seen the same mistakes time and time again across the county, which they described as 'a signing disaster zone'.
The judge urgently called on the county council to put right the signs across Hampshire to avoid future cases being thrown out in the same way.
But Hampshire's Safer Roads Partnership insisted that despite the judge's ruling, it believes the signs are fine and refused to rule out continuing to issue penalties in the effected areas.
The expert witness whose report uncovered the signage deficiencies blasted the statement as 'amazing'.
Former traffic cop Richard Bentley said: “How can they say that when the judge has made a ruling? All they are trying to do is damage limitation. They should just pay the money back to everyone they have fined illegally.”
Discussion
Should be somewhere in this beastie
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm
I have a feeling that the yellow reflective backing on signs was challenged at one point
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm
I have a feeling that the yellow reflective backing on signs was challenged at one point
The ABD website is not a bad place to start researching.
For heftier reference material, try the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, as linked above..
For heftier reference material, try the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, as linked above..
Edited by SS2. on Monday 15th October 11:19
The 'state' is safeguarded against this by 'us' having to admit guilt by effectively mounting no defence... it is all the more reason why people should NOT just write to court accepting guilt.
All cases should be contested.
I got a bit of abuse on here for saying that such acquiescence [taking it on the chin] is like turkeys voting for Christmas.
Well, if this goes the full stretch, in the end the only people that will be liable for any recompense is likely to be those that contested and lost and only in the areas specced... the 'refund' will be minimal.
On here there is a certain amount of 'macho' posting about taking the punishment and just shut up and pay... advice that I think will mean that many who should not have suffered an injustice have no recourse in law.
However, the law will be further villified, attitudes will harden and society gets more venal at each such injustice.
All cases should be contested.
I got a bit of abuse on here for saying that such acquiescence [taking it on the chin] is like turkeys voting for Christmas.
Well, if this goes the full stretch, in the end the only people that will be liable for any recompense is likely to be those that contested and lost and only in the areas specced... the 'refund' will be minimal.
On here there is a certain amount of 'macho' posting about taking the punishment and just shut up and pay... advice that I think will mean that many who should not have suffered an injustice have no recourse in law.
However, the law will be further villified, attitudes will harden and society gets more venal at each such injustice.
somouk said:
Has anybody got any information on why the signs don't have a legal backing so as people can investigate their own convictions?
A friend was caught yesterday and I feel foul play as far as the signs go...
Mart
There is actually a thread on SP&L which has a transcript of the court case.A friend was caught yesterday and I feel foul play as far as the signs go...
Mart
It makes the SCP look very silly.
In effect they are nabbing people in areas where the speed limit is NOT what the SCP think it is.
Thus in the particular area in question it is my belief that there will be a lot of refunds from that enforcement area since the speed limit is enenforcable. People will have to push for it though.
I think the real point in law is that any conviction based on similar/identical conditions would be unsafe.
What effectively happened was that a driver travelling along the main road would be aware of one speed limit whilst a driver entering the same road further along and travelling along side the previous driver would be aware of a different limit.
So, unless the police could prove that all the drivers 'shot' that day came along the carriageway from the start [which is impossible, unless they had closed the side roads] all previous convictions on that stretch are 'unsafe'... except of course if you admitted fault... in whaich case you effectively accepted you knew the lower speed limit.
That is how this 'landmark' case will be dealt with.
Sorry, but I wish I was wrong, but I doubt it.
What effectively happened was that a driver travelling along the main road would be aware of one speed limit whilst a driver entering the same road further along and travelling along side the previous driver would be aware of a different limit.
So, unless the police could prove that all the drivers 'shot' that day came along the carriageway from the start [which is impossible, unless they had closed the side roads] all previous convictions on that stretch are 'unsafe'... except of course if you admitted fault... in whaich case you effectively accepted you knew the lower speed limit.
That is how this 'landmark' case will be dealt with.
Sorry, but I wish I was wrong, but I doubt it.
somouk said:
Has anybody got any information on why the signs don't have a legal backing so as people can investigate their own convictions?
A friend was caught yesterday and I feel foul play as far as the signs go...
Mart
Info at the bottom of this ABD page http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htmA friend was caught yesterday and I feel foul play as far as the signs go...
Mart
It sounds like either the incorrect signs have been erected or they have been put in the wrong place, not as in the TRO. The TRO may say 'NSL for 1km from junction . . .' and the sign has been sited 800m from the junction. So for the 200m the NSL is not enforceable as it may be 40mph for that length.
The TSRGD will tell you what each sign is and its reference. Chapter 3, I think, of The Traffic Signs manual tells you where it may be sited, what size it can be ans in what circumstances it may be used.
The TSRGD will tell you what each sign is and its reference. Chapter 3, I think, of The Traffic Signs manual tells you where it may be sited, what size it can be ans in what circumstances it may be used.
Brother Mycroft said:
So, unless the police could prove that all the drivers 'shot' that day came along the carriageway from the start [which is impossible, unless they had closed the side roads] all previous convictions on that stretch are 'unsafe'... except of course if you admitted fault... in whaich case you effectively accepted you knew the lower speed limit.
From what I remember of the transcript, it wasn't dependent on whether a driver had or had not passed the signs posting the actual limit. The fact that some of the speed limit signs were incorrect meant that the speed restriction could not legally be enforced. In fact I think that under those circumstances NO limit applied, not even the NSL.varsas said:
Brother Mycroft said:
NO limit applied, not even the NSL.
Good luck testing that one! Let me know how it goes...Edited by varsas on Monday 15th October 14:02
Edited by varsas on Monday 15th October 14:03
I would hazard a guess that the NSL is the limit in that area effected by this camera location.
I don't know the road but it appears to be a DC.
No more than a guess though.
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