Amber light time set short to catch us out?
Discussion
Anyone noticed the very short timing of the amber traffic light when heading towards Hooton at Two Mills crossroads, near Ledsham in Cheshire? This is where the A550 crosses the A540 and is a 60 mph limit road. Surprise surprise, it also has a red light camera.
I always get twitchy as I approach this set of lights, aware that the amber duration is short, aware that traffic could be coming up behind me at 60 mph. Thursday I was in a queue of standing traffic there with a red light ahead. I was about 10 cars back when the light turned green and as I approached the still green light (twitchily) I had amber, almost immediately followed by a red. My wife too was amazed by the speed of the change.
I was very close to the line when the amber lit and jumped on the brakes. I stopped with the cars nose just over the line and short of the impedance loops in the road. As has been discussed before, this amber light is supposed to allow time to either stop safely before the line or to clear the junction before the red. The amber duration there now seems shorter than it has ever been and must be catching many drivers out, especially those who are unaware of the red light camera.
There have been several reports from the USA and also at least one form South Wales that these ambers are being set deliberately to a short duration where red light cameras are installed to raise revenue. If that is what has been done at Two Mills then it is a disgrace.
Who do I complain to? Police or Cheshire Highways?
I always get twitchy as I approach this set of lights, aware that the amber duration is short, aware that traffic could be coming up behind me at 60 mph. Thursday I was in a queue of standing traffic there with a red light ahead. I was about 10 cars back when the light turned green and as I approached the still green light (twitchily) I had amber, almost immediately followed by a red. My wife too was amazed by the speed of the change.
I was very close to the line when the amber lit and jumped on the brakes. I stopped with the cars nose just over the line and short of the impedance loops in the road. As has been discussed before, this amber light is supposed to allow time to either stop safely before the line or to clear the junction before the red. The amber duration there now seems shorter than it has ever been and must be catching many drivers out, especially those who are unaware of the red light camera.
There have been several reports from the USA and also at least one form South Wales that these ambers are being set deliberately to a short duration where red light cameras are installed to raise revenue. If that is what has been done at Two Mills then it is a disgrace.
Who do I complain to? Police or Cheshire Highways?
the leaving amber (ie the amber leaving the green) must ALWAYS be 3 seconds - there is no scope to change that in the uk regs. You can vary the length of "all red" between the ambers to give longer clearance times between phases (using a formula set out in the design manual) but you CANNOT reduce the amber (3 seconds) or the red/amber (2 seconds) ANYWHERE.
If the amber at the signals you refer to is less than 3 seconds then report them as faulty to the local highways department.
(one problem is that signal controllers are euro-compliant so because some countries DO have different ambers, it IS theoretically possible for it to be set wrongly by a stupid installer - but uk regs specifically do not allow this).
If the amber at the signals you refer to is less than 3 seconds then report them as faulty to the local highways department.
(one problem is that signal controllers are euro-compliant so because some countries DO have different ambers, it IS theoretically possible for it to be set wrongly by a stupid installer - but uk regs specifically do not allow this).
tvrgit said:
the leaving amber (ie the amber leaving the green) must ALWAYS be 3 seconds - there is no scope to change that in the uk regs. You can vary the length of "all red" between the ambers to give longer clearance times between phases (using a formula set out in the design manual) but you CANNOT reduce the amber (3 seconds) or the red/amber (2 seconds) ANYWHERE.
If the amber at the signals you refer to is less than 3 seconds then report them as faulty to the local highways department.
(one problem is that signal controllers are euro-compliant so because some countries DO have different ambers, it IS theoretically possible for it to be set wrongly by a stupid installer - but uk regs specifically do not allow this).
Cheers. That amber is definitely less than 3 seconds. It was Green............. Amber, Red nearly as fast as it takes to read that.If the amber at the signals you refer to is less than 3 seconds then report them as faulty to the local highways department.
(one problem is that signal controllers are euro-compliant so because some countries DO have different ambers, it IS theoretically possible for it to be set wrongly by a stupid installer - but uk regs specifically do not allow this).
I read somewhere that the amber "time-on" varies with the speed limit. As the road has a 60 limit I guess it should be quite long.
Just found this which suggests a 60 mph limit should have maybe a 5 second amber. Do these timings not apply here?
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/16/1621.asp
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/16/1621.asp
tvrgit said:
the leaving amber (ie the amber leaving the green) must ALWAYS be 3 seconds - there is no scope to change that in the uk regs.
I think that's an absolute MINIMUM of three seconds. As the road speed limit rises, so the minimum time rises (IIRC - DVD will no doubt be along shortly to quote chapter and verse) - Streakytvrgit said:
the leaving amber (ie the amber leaving the green) must ALWAYS be 3 seconds - there is no scope to change that in the uk regs.
Should that apply to ramp metering traffic lights? (The lights that control traffic on some motorway slip roads). They seem to cycle through the colours like disco lights......Re the link above: Texas isn't in the UK.
in the UK, the amber time is not related to road speed, traffic volume or anything else. It's always 3 seconds.
So the "standard" intergreen is 5 seconds:
stage 1 green goes off
leaving amber 3 seconds
red/amber 2 seconds
stage 2 green starts
The shortest intergreen you are allowed in the UK is 4 seconds:
stage 1 green goes off
leaving amber 2 seconds
(leaving amber and red/amber can then overlap by 1 second)
then the rest of the red/amber 1 seconds
stage 2 green starts
The overall clearance time between traffic stopping and the next traffic going (the intergreen) can be increased (and should be if traffic speeds are higher or the junction is wide so you need more time for cars to clear). You do that by adding or increasing an all red period between the leaving amber and the starting red/amber.
So if traffic speeds were higher and you wanted to all say an 8 second intergreen, the sequence then would be:
stage 1 green goes off
leaving amber 3 seconds
all red 3 seconds
red/amber 2 seconds
stage 2 green starts
The leaving amber is always 3 seconds in the UK. The red/amber is always 2 seconds. Always. Only exception is the flashing amber at pelican crossings.
If you know of a set of signals where the leaving amber is less than (or indeed more than) 3 seconds then they are faulty.
in the UK, the amber time is not related to road speed, traffic volume or anything else. It's always 3 seconds.
So the "standard" intergreen is 5 seconds:
stage 1 green goes off
leaving amber 3 seconds
red/amber 2 seconds
stage 2 green starts
The shortest intergreen you are allowed in the UK is 4 seconds:
stage 1 green goes off
leaving amber 2 seconds
(leaving amber and red/amber can then overlap by 1 second)
then the rest of the red/amber 1 seconds
stage 2 green starts
The overall clearance time between traffic stopping and the next traffic going (the intergreen) can be increased (and should be if traffic speeds are higher or the junction is wide so you need more time for cars to clear). You do that by adding or increasing an all red period between the leaving amber and the starting red/amber.
So if traffic speeds were higher and you wanted to all say an 8 second intergreen, the sequence then would be:
stage 1 green goes off
leaving amber 3 seconds
all red 3 seconds
red/amber 2 seconds
stage 2 green starts
The leaving amber is always 3 seconds in the UK. The red/amber is always 2 seconds. Always. Only exception is the flashing amber at pelican crossings.
If you know of a set of signals where the leaving amber is less than (or indeed more than) 3 seconds then they are faulty.
Vaux said:
tvrgit said:
the leaving amber (ie the amber leaving the green) must ALWAYS be 3 seconds - there is no scope to change that in the uk regs.
Should that apply to ramp metering traffic lights? (The lights that control traffic on some motorway slip roads). They seem to cycle through the colours like disco lights......Westbound on the A580 'East Lancs Road', just before Boothstown (I think), there is a traffic light controlled junction with red light camera. I'm not sure about nowadays, but a few years ago the amber phase lasted significantly less than 3 seconds and the speed limit was 50 or 60mph at that time (I think it will be the same nowadays still).
Stressful... unless one slows way below the speed limit.
Stressful... unless one slows way below the speed limit.
aw51 121565 said:
Westbound on the A580 'East Lancs Road', just before Boothstown (I think), there is a traffic light controlled junction with red light camera. I'm not sure about nowadays, but a few years ago the amber phase lasted significantly less than 3 seconds and the speed limit was 50 or 60mph at that time (I think it will be the same nowadays still).
Stressful... unless one slows way below the speed limit.
Not compliant with UK regs. Report as faulty.Stressful... unless one slows way below the speed limit.
aw51 121565 said:
Westbound on the A580 'East Lancs Road', just before Boothstown (I think), there is a traffic light controlled junction with red light camera. I'm not sure about nowadays, but a few years ago the amber phase lasted significantly less than 3 seconds and the speed limit was 50 or 60mph at that time (I think it will be the same nowadays still).
Stressful... unless one slows way below the speed limit.
Stressful indeed. That's just how I feel at Two Mills lights.Stressful... unless one slows way below the speed limit.
tvrgit said:
Re the link above: Texas isn't in the UK.
in the UK, the amber time is not related to road speed, traffic volume or anything else. It's always 3 seconds.
So the "standard" intergreen is 5 seconds:
stage 1 green goes off
leaving amber 3 seconds
red/amber 2 seconds
stage 2 green starts
The shortest intergreen you are allowed in the UK is 4 seconds:
stage 1 green goes off
leaving amber 2 seconds
(leaving amber and red/amber can then overlap by 1 second)
then the rest of the red/amber 1 seconds
stage 2 green starts
The overall clearance time between traffic stopping and the next traffic going (the intergreen) can be increased (and should be if traffic speeds are higher or the junction is wide so you need more time for cars to clear). You do that by adding or increasing an all red period between the leaving amber and the starting red/amber.
So if traffic speeds were higher and you wanted to all say an 8 second intergreen, the sequence then would be:
stage 1 green goes off
leaving amber 3 seconds
all red 3 seconds
red/amber 2 seconds
stage 2 green starts
The leaving amber is always 3 seconds in the UK. The red/amber is always 2 seconds. Always. Only exception is the flashing amber at pelican crossings.
If you know of a set of signals where the leaving amber is less than (or indeed more than) 3 seconds then they are faulty.
Not being familiar with the terms "leaving amber" and "intergreen", you are saying that when the amber lights it should stay on for 3 seconds before the red appears? In any speed limit?in the UK, the amber time is not related to road speed, traffic volume or anything else. It's always 3 seconds.
So the "standard" intergreen is 5 seconds:
stage 1 green goes off
leaving amber 3 seconds
red/amber 2 seconds
stage 2 green starts
The shortest intergreen you are allowed in the UK is 4 seconds:
stage 1 green goes off
leaving amber 2 seconds
(leaving amber and red/amber can then overlap by 1 second)
then the rest of the red/amber 1 seconds
stage 2 green starts
The overall clearance time between traffic stopping and the next traffic going (the intergreen) can be increased (and should be if traffic speeds are higher or the junction is wide so you need more time for cars to clear). You do that by adding or increasing an all red period between the leaving amber and the starting red/amber.
So if traffic speeds were higher and you wanted to all say an 8 second intergreen, the sequence then would be:
stage 1 green goes off
leaving amber 3 seconds
all red 3 seconds
red/amber 2 seconds
stage 2 green starts
The leaving amber is always 3 seconds in the UK. The red/amber is always 2 seconds. Always. Only exception is the flashing amber at pelican crossings.
If you know of a set of signals where the leaving amber is less than (or indeed more than) 3 seconds then they are faulty.
I wonder why the US highways folks think a higher speed limit needs a longer amber and we don't. Longer seems logical given the difference in stopping distances between 60 mph and 30 mph. I have reported the very short amber ( much less than 3 seconds) to Cheshire Highways and have been given a customer number (customer?). It is well known that amber lights have been shortened in the US for revenue raising purposes and, given the current Leftist hatred of the car, it seems likely it could happen here, and indeed already has in South Wales. I don't have a link to that report as it was some years ago.
Will let you know what happens. Thanks for the information.
Tafia said:
Not being familiar with the terms "leaving amber" and "intergreen", you are saying that when the amber lights it should stay on for 3 seconds before the red appears? In any speed limit?
YesTafia said:
I wonder why the US highways folks think a higher speed limit needs a longer amber and we don't. Longer seems logical given the difference in stopping distances between 60 mph and 30 mph.
It is logical. In the US they vary the length of the amber. In the UK they keep the amber the same but add an additional all-red on higher speed roads or wider junction - so the clearance time between greens is probably the same (ish) but the old "amber gamblers (remember those adverts?) aren't encouraged.The 3 seconds amber, believe it or not, is prescribed in a Statutory Instrument by Parliament (ie not quite an Act but still something to be disregarded at your legal peril!) so nobody else has powers to vary that. The Design Manual for Roads and Bridges summarises that position simply by saying that the amber in the UK should always be 3 seconds.
Tafia said:
I have reported the very short amber ( much less than 3 seconds) to Cheshire Highways and have been given a customer number (customer?). It is well known that amber lights have been shortened in the US for revenue raising purposes and, given the current Leftist hatred of the car, it seems likely it could happen here, and indeed already has in South Wales. I don't have a link to that report as it was some years ago.
As I say, individual roads authorities do not have the power to vary that amber period - it's set down in law. Parliament would have to grant a special dispensation, and, so far as I am aware, they have never done so, in the interests of consistency across the country. IF the ambers have been shortened in South Wales then they are probably illegal and wide open to substantial claims in the event of conflict accidents.Interestingly, the Transport Research Laboratory in Berkshire have recently completed research on varying the amber period at high speed roads and that study concluded that they should remain as they are, with the extra all-red clearance time. It would be a very foolish authority who acted not only against Parliament, but also against the results of that research.
MiniMac said:
Faulty light, no fine etc I think. SCP might go to court though.
I live just near there and go through that junction every day.
I drive from the Hinderton Arms, along Chester High Road, through Two Mills and onto M56, so not through the camera thankfully. Small world eh
Hey neighbour. Wife and I went to the Moby Dick for lunch the day of the fast amber. Proper gave me indigestion. Still waiting for Cheshire Higways response.I live just near there and go through that junction every day.
I drive from the Hinderton Arms, along Chester High Road, through Two Mills and onto M56, so not through the camera thankfully. Small world eh
Tafia said:
Anyone noticed the very short timing of the amber traffic light when heading towards Hooton at Two Mills crossroads, near Ledsham in Cheshire? This is where the A550 crosses the A540 and is a 60 mph limit road. Surprise surprise, it also has a red light camera.
I always get twitchy as I approach this set of lights, aware that the amber duration is short, aware that traffic could be coming up behind me at 60 mph. Thursday I was in a queue of standing traffic there with a red light ahead. I was about 10 cars back when the light turned green and as I approached the still green light (twitchily) I had amber, almost immediately followed by a red. My wife too was amazed by the speed of the change.
I was very close to the line when the amber lit and jumped on the brakes. I stopped with the cars nose just over the line and short of the impedance loops in the road. As has been discussed before, this amber light is supposed to allow time to either stop safely before the line or to clear the junction before the red. The amber duration there now seems shorter than it has ever been and must be catching many drivers out, especially those who are unaware of the red light camera.
There have been several reports from the USA and also at least one form South Wales that these ambers are being set deliberately to a short duration where red light cameras are installed to raise revenue. If that is what has been done at Two Mills then it is a disgrace.
Who do I complain to? Police or Cheshire Highways?
Tafia,I always get twitchy as I approach this set of lights, aware that the amber duration is short, aware that traffic could be coming up behind me at 60 mph. Thursday I was in a queue of standing traffic there with a red light ahead. I was about 10 cars back when the light turned green and as I approached the still green light (twitchily) I had amber, almost immediately followed by a red. My wife too was amazed by the speed of the change.
I was very close to the line when the amber lit and jumped on the brakes. I stopped with the cars nose just over the line and short of the impedance loops in the road. As has been discussed before, this amber light is supposed to allow time to either stop safely before the line or to clear the junction before the red. The amber duration there now seems shorter than it has ever been and must be catching many drivers out, especially those who are unaware of the red light camera.
There have been several reports from the USA and also at least one form South Wales that these ambers are being set deliberately to a short duration where red light cameras are installed to raise revenue. If that is what has been done at Two Mills then it is a disgrace.
Who do I complain to? Police or Cheshire Highways?
I've been travelling that route for the past nine years and the amber has always seemed to have a very short duration. I have the same nervousness as I approach that junction. I have been through on red a few times (due to inability to stop in time even at 40mph nevermind 60mph) but have never had a NIP for it, though.
It needs sorting out.
lunarscope said:
Tafia said:
Anyone noticed the very short timing of the amber traffic light when heading towards Hooton at Two Mills crossroads, near Ledsham in Cheshire? This is where the A550 crosses the A540 and is a 60 mph limit road. Surprise surprise, it also has a red light camera.
I always get twitchy as I approach this set of lights, aware that the amber duration is short, aware that traffic could be coming up behind me at 60 mph. Thursday I was in a queue of standing traffic there with a red light ahead. I was about 10 cars back when the light turned green and as I approached the still green light (twitchily) I had amber, almost immediately followed by a red. My wife too was amazed by the speed of the change.
I was very close to the line when the amber lit and jumped on the brakes. I stopped with the cars nose just over the line and short of the impedance loops in the road. As has been discussed before, this amber light is supposed to allow time to either stop safely before the line or to clear the junction before the red. The amber duration there now seems shorter than it has ever been and must be catching many drivers out, especially those who are unaware of the red light camera.
There have been several reports from the USA and also at least one form South Wales that these ambers are being set deliberately to a short duration where red light cameras are installed to raise revenue. If that is what has been done at Two Mills then it is a disgrace.
Who do I complain to? Police or Cheshire Highways?
Tafia,I always get twitchy as I approach this set of lights, aware that the amber duration is short, aware that traffic could be coming up behind me at 60 mph. Thursday I was in a queue of standing traffic there with a red light ahead. I was about 10 cars back when the light turned green and as I approached the still green light (twitchily) I had amber, almost immediately followed by a red. My wife too was amazed by the speed of the change.
I was very close to the line when the amber lit and jumped on the brakes. I stopped with the cars nose just over the line and short of the impedance loops in the road. As has been discussed before, this amber light is supposed to allow time to either stop safely before the line or to clear the junction before the red. The amber duration there now seems shorter than it has ever been and must be catching many drivers out, especially those who are unaware of the red light camera.
There have been several reports from the USA and also at least one form South Wales that these ambers are being set deliberately to a short duration where red light cameras are installed to raise revenue. If that is what has been done at Two Mills then it is a disgrace.
Who do I complain to? Police or Cheshire Highways?
I've been travelling that route for the past nine years and the amber has always seemed to have a very short duration. I have the same nervousness as I approach that junction. I have been through on red a few times (due to inability to stop in time even at 40mph nevermind 60mph) but have never had a NIP for it, though.
It needs sorting out.
Tafia said:
lunarscope said:
Tafia said:
Anyone noticed the very short timing of the amber traffic light when heading towards Hooton at Two Mills crossroads, near Ledsham in Cheshire? This is where the A550 crosses the A540 and is a 60 mph limit road. Surprise surprise, it also has a red light camera.
I always get twitchy as I approach this set of lights, aware that the amber duration is short, aware that traffic could be coming up behind me at 60 mph. Thursday I was in a queue of standing traffic there with a red light ahead. I was about 10 cars back when the light turned green and as I approached the still green light (twitchily) I had amber, almost immediately followed by a red. My wife too was amazed by the speed of the change.
I was very close to the line when the amber lit and jumped on the brakes. I stopped with the cars nose just over the line and short of the impedance loops in the road. As has been discussed before, this amber light is supposed to allow time to either stop safely before the line or to clear the junction before the red. The amber duration there now seems shorter than it has ever been and must be catching many drivers out, especially those who are unaware of the red light camera.
There have been several reports from the USA and also at least one form South Wales that these ambers are being set deliberately to a short duration where red light cameras are installed to raise revenue. If that is what has been done at Two Mills then it is a disgrace.
Who do I complain to? Police or Cheshire Highways?
Tafia,I always get twitchy as I approach this set of lights, aware that the amber duration is short, aware that traffic could be coming up behind me at 60 mph. Thursday I was in a queue of standing traffic there with a red light ahead. I was about 10 cars back when the light turned green and as I approached the still green light (twitchily) I had amber, almost immediately followed by a red. My wife too was amazed by the speed of the change.
I was very close to the line when the amber lit and jumped on the brakes. I stopped with the cars nose just over the line and short of the impedance loops in the road. As has been discussed before, this amber light is supposed to allow time to either stop safely before the line or to clear the junction before the red. The amber duration there now seems shorter than it has ever been and must be catching many drivers out, especially those who are unaware of the red light camera.
There have been several reports from the USA and also at least one form South Wales that these ambers are being set deliberately to a short duration where red light cameras are installed to raise revenue. If that is what has been done at Two Mills then it is a disgrace.
Who do I complain to? Police or Cheshire Highways?
I've been travelling that route for the past nine years and the amber has always seemed to have a very short duration. I have the same nervousness as I approach that junction. I have been through on red a few times (due to inability to stop in time even at 40mph nevermind 60mph) but have never had a NIP for it, though.
It needs sorting out.
did you complain to Guilden Sutton Office (Chester Area office) or Ellesmere Port and Neston - cheshire highways
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