Quickie for Madcop
Discussion
Hello Matey, just asked gemini this on another thread but he didn't want to comment as he's fed up with being slagged of by the numpties, can't say I blame him
Your opinion would be greatly appreciated
Here goes...
Suppose you're driving along an open road at, say, 60mph and you come across a car doing, say, 45-50mph. Lets also suppose the road is dry, visibility is good, there are no entrances/exits onto the road ahead of you. You've got a good gap and you want to overtake but to do so safely before visibility runs out or the gap available closes you have to break the speed limit slightly. I personally think in this situation it's better to stay fully commited and use the FULL performance of the car to get back on my side of the road as quickly as possible (either that or completely calm down and give up hope of making progress, such as at teatime). If you or one of your colleagues saw this would I get nicked, or congratulated for being decisive, swift and safe?
Any comments would be helpful
Thanks
Andy
Your opinion would be greatly appreciated
Here goes...
Suppose you're driving along an open road at, say, 60mph and you come across a car doing, say, 45-50mph. Lets also suppose the road is dry, visibility is good, there are no entrances/exits onto the road ahead of you. You've got a good gap and you want to overtake but to do so safely before visibility runs out or the gap available closes you have to break the speed limit slightly. I personally think in this situation it's better to stay fully commited and use the FULL performance of the car to get back on my side of the road as quickly as possible (either that or completely calm down and give up hope of making progress, such as at teatime). If you or one of your colleagues saw this would I get nicked, or congratulated for being decisive, swift and safe?
Any comments would be helpful
Thanks
Andy
(Realise I'm not madcop, sorry, but thought I'd comment).....
I'm currently reading "Roadcraft" (the police driver's handbook of advanced driving/car control sort of thing)....anywya, it specifically says in there that you must NOT break the speed limit to complete a manouvere, for example, overtaking.
It makes a big point about this and I was curious to see what the answer would be.
As far as would anyone "do" you for it, my opinion is that it all comes down to whether the policeman is in a good mood or not.....but as far as the law is concerned, he should.
>> Edited by tonyhetherington on Friday 27th June 17:00
I'm currently reading "Roadcraft" (the police driver's handbook of advanced driving/car control sort of thing)....anywya, it specifically says in there that you must NOT break the speed limit to complete a manouvere, for example, overtaking.
It makes a big point about this and I was curious to see what the answer would be.
As far as would anyone "do" you for it, my opinion is that it all comes down to whether the policeman is in a good mood or not.....but as far as the law is concerned, he should.
>> Edited by tonyhetherington on Friday 27th June 17:00
craploginname said:
Suppose you're driving along an open road at, say, 60mph and you come across a car doing, say, 45-50mph. Lets also suppose the road is dry, visibility is good, there are no entrances/exits onto the road ahead of you. You've got a good gap and you want to overtake but to do so safely before visibility runs out or the gap available closes you have to break the speed limit slightly. I personally think in this situation it's better to stay fully commited and use the FULL performance of the car to get back on my side of the road as quickly as possible (either that or completely calm down and give up hope of making progress, such as at teatime). If you or one of your colleagues saw this would I get nicked, or congratulated for being decisive, swift and safe?
Any comments would be helpful
Thanks
Andy
It very much depends on how you actually perform the manouvre. People are not taught how to overtake properly. Most develop a style which is wrong and dangerous but effective. It also has the propensity to wind the person up that has been passed.
There is a proper way to overtake which is very safe and will cause no offence to anyone, even if you exceed the limit to do so.
The key to overtaking and not winding anyone up is to plan it properly execute it well and use acceleration sense in the process rather than a foot full of power and then jump straight onto the brake before stuffing the next car in line up the ar5e.
In my opinion, it is an offence to exceed the limit anywhere but foolish not to do so if it means a head on crash in the process
I think you will find most Police officers are of the same opinion. 
Maybe some police officers would say that you should not commence a manouvre you can't complete without breaking the law. To do so could be construed as driving without due care and attention.
However, once committed to overtake anthen realising that you are going to run out of safe space, you really have little option but to reach a safe position by whatever means necessary. Basically, you should not have started to overtake in the first place.
We've all been there!
However, once committed to overtake anthen realising that you are going to run out of safe space, you really have little option but to reach a safe position by whatever means necessary. Basically, you should not have started to overtake in the first place.
We've all been there!
I was always led to believe that the least amount of time exposed to danger (on the wrong side of the road) was ultimately the safest way to overtake. Certainly the scenario of a car travelling at 50 mph in a 60 mph limit would see me using all available power to get past and then ease back down to my chosen cruise speed. To just use 60 mph instead of say 75 mph would greatly increase the TED. It is a very interesting point this one.
Cooperman said:
once committed to overtake anthen realising that you are going to run out of safe space, you really have little option but to reach a safe position by whatever means necessary.
Very true, and if they ever introduce those satellite controlled speed limiters the government keeps making noises about I fear there will be many more fatalities from head on crashes.
Admittedly you probably shouldn’t overtake if the only way you will make it past is to engage warp drive and squeeze back in with a few inches to spare – but people do and I certainly have on a few occasions.
Madcop -
What would you say is the best way to overtake.
I remember readingf about the "triangle" approach:
Pull out in correct gear but at a good distance, check the road is clear then accelerate passed the car and pull in.
I know it must be different for different situations/cars etc etc but as a general rule what would you suggest?
What would you say is the best way to overtake.
I remember readingf about the "triangle" approach:
Pull out in correct gear but at a good distance, check the road is clear then accelerate passed the car and pull in.
I know it must be different for different situations/cars etc etc but as a general rule what would you suggest?
If in doubt back out! Theres more than one pedal in the car, the brake can be highly effective to get you out of a head on situation. Personally id rather have to hit the brake mid overtake and drop in behind once again than go to casualty. Also, if you havent got a gap to go into, you shouldnt even think about trying an overtake.
All of this is common sense and experience.
All of this is common sense and experience.
True deltaf but how many times have you started to overtake having seen your return "gap" to find numptybo****ks speeding up to fill int the gap. You are committed with foot down and can make the next "gap" if you keep accelerating. Also looking behind you find that numptybo****ks2 has closed the gap where you came from (or even pulled out behind you) leaving you with only one option.
icamm said:
True deltaf but how many times have you started to overtake having seen your return "gap" to find numptybo****ks speeding up to fill int the gap. You are committed with foot down and can make the next "gap" if you keep accelerating. Also looking behind you find that numptybo****ks2 has closed the gap where you came from (or even pulled out behind you) leaving you with only one option.
That's all too true but 'advanced driving' is about knowing these situations can happen - in which case you will be leaving even more room than just enough to complete your manouvre.
There is an advanced technique for overtaking. I will explain it as best I can but it requires demonstration to show how to do it safely.
Most people when they overtake do so in the wrong order from the start of the manouvre. The first is to plan where the overtake is to commence from.
The very best place to overtake from is off the exit of a bend. This requires that you position the car at the optimum distance behind the target so as to get the view right and to be in the correct gear.
Most people leave much too big a gap between themselves and the target veghicle which means there is too much dead ground to make up.
There is a very sensitive area to find in relation to how far you should be behind the vehicle in front so as not to put too much pressure on them and make them nervous but to be within effective striking distance to get past quickly without losing time and space.
NEVER commence the overtake from the same side of the road as the target vehicle.
By that I mean do not start to accelerate whilst immediately behind the target. Get the view first by moving the car out, in the correct gear for the speed so that the tachometer is somewhere around 3000 revs.
whilst moving the car out do not decrease the distance between the target and the front of your own car by accelerating.
How many times have you seen drivers trying to get a view by almost winding their necks out of the drivers window to see past the target? I sometimes wonder if they are going to appear with a 4 foot neck to get a view.
Move the whole car for the view, it is much easier.
Once you are out and have a view, you can make a decision. With the correct gear selected, you can either go past the target if the overtake is safe and is available. If it is not, you simply steer the car back into the position you have maintained behind the target therefore averting the need to use any braking at all.
Think of a gun and a target. You do not fire a gun at a target you cannot see. This is the big mistake that people make when they commence and overtake.
1) They are too far back,
2) They accelerate on the same side as the target decreasing the distance rapidly between them,
3) They then swoop out under power and see that the situation has changed and the overtake is not available and too close to the target vehicle which requires extra steering to get out and then back again once past the target.
4) They have a huge amount of momentum to lose to get back in safely behind the target vehicle.
5) This requires braking and steering at the same time which can be a recipe for a disaster.
6) This worries the person driving the target vehicle!
The correct way is to get the view first decide on whether it is on or it is not. If it is on with the correct gear selected, then go for it but do not keep accelerating once level with the target, certainly not once you have past it unless you are going for multi overtakes. If there is a gap for you to pull into and you accelerate beyond the target you will nearly always have to brake because you will still be increasing your momentum.
Acceleration sense is the ability to vary the speed of the vehicle through accurate use of the accelerator to meet changing road and traffic conditions (so says road Craft) and is only really easy to demonstrate and not explain. If you can pass the target safely and then drop back into the gap without braking, it not only feels good but looks very professional too.
The triangle principle is a good one too.
It is the correct way to pass the target by accelerating and cutting an oblique angle across the front of the target to get back to the correct side.
By that I do not mean cutting them up!!!!!
This is hugely preferable to making a yawing curve around the target.
Overtaking is the most dangerous manouvre you can make. It is normally at higher speeds and has the possiblity of very high combined impact speeds if it goes wrong.
Unless you know what you are doing or have someone demonstrate this method, be very careful where and when you try it. It may be the last time you do!
THIS IS THE PROPER WAY TO DO THIS BUT YOU NEED TRAINING IN HOW TO PERFECT IT
>> Edited by madcop on Friday 27th June 20:00
Most people when they overtake do so in the wrong order from the start of the manouvre. The first is to plan where the overtake is to commence from.
The very best place to overtake from is off the exit of a bend. This requires that you position the car at the optimum distance behind the target so as to get the view right and to be in the correct gear.
Most people leave much too big a gap between themselves and the target veghicle which means there is too much dead ground to make up.
There is a very sensitive area to find in relation to how far you should be behind the vehicle in front so as not to put too much pressure on them and make them nervous but to be within effective striking distance to get past quickly without losing time and space.
NEVER commence the overtake from the same side of the road as the target vehicle.
By that I mean do not start to accelerate whilst immediately behind the target. Get the view first by moving the car out, in the correct gear for the speed so that the tachometer is somewhere around 3000 revs.
whilst moving the car out do not decrease the distance between the target and the front of your own car by accelerating.
How many times have you seen drivers trying to get a view by almost winding their necks out of the drivers window to see past the target? I sometimes wonder if they are going to appear with a 4 foot neck to get a view.
Move the whole car for the view, it is much easier.
Once you are out and have a view, you can make a decision. With the correct gear selected, you can either go past the target if the overtake is safe and is available. If it is not, you simply steer the car back into the position you have maintained behind the target therefore averting the need to use any braking at all.
Think of a gun and a target. You do not fire a gun at a target you cannot see. This is the big mistake that people make when they commence and overtake.
1) They are too far back,
2) They accelerate on the same side as the target decreasing the distance rapidly between them,
3) They then swoop out under power and see that the situation has changed and the overtake is not available and too close to the target vehicle which requires extra steering to get out and then back again once past the target.
4) They have a huge amount of momentum to lose to get back in safely behind the target vehicle.
5) This requires braking and steering at the same time which can be a recipe for a disaster.
6) This worries the person driving the target vehicle!
The correct way is to get the view first decide on whether it is on or it is not. If it is on with the correct gear selected, then go for it but do not keep accelerating once level with the target, certainly not once you have past it unless you are going for multi overtakes. If there is a gap for you to pull into and you accelerate beyond the target you will nearly always have to brake because you will still be increasing your momentum.
Acceleration sense is the ability to vary the speed of the vehicle through accurate use of the accelerator to meet changing road and traffic conditions (so says road Craft) and is only really easy to demonstrate and not explain. If you can pass the target safely and then drop back into the gap without braking, it not only feels good but looks very professional too.
The triangle principle is a good one too.
It is the correct way to pass the target by accelerating and cutting an oblique angle across the front of the target to get back to the correct side.
By that I do not mean cutting them up!!!!!
This is hugely preferable to making a yawing curve around the target.
Overtaking is the most dangerous manouvre you can make. It is normally at higher speeds and has the possiblity of very high combined impact speeds if it goes wrong.
Unless you know what you are doing or have someone demonstrate this method, be very careful where and when you try it. It may be the last time you do!
THIS IS THE PROPER WAY TO DO THIS BUT YOU NEED TRAINING IN HOW TO PERFECT IT
>> Edited by madcop on Friday 27th June 20:00
madcop said:
There is an advanced technique for overtaking. I will explain it as best I can but it requires demonstration to show how to do it safely.
Most people when they overtake do so in the wrong order from the start of the manouvre. The first is to plan where the overtake is to commence from.
The very best place to overtake from is off the exit of a bend. This requires that you position the car at the optimum distance behind the target so as to get the view right and to be in the correct gear.
Most people leave much too big a gap between themselves and the target veghicle which means there is too much dead ground to make up.
There is a very sensitive area to find in relation to how far you should be behind the vehicle in front so as not to put too much pressure on them and make them nervous but to be within effective striking distance to get past quickly without losing time and space.
NEVER commence the overtake from the same side of the road as the target vehicle.
By that I mean do not start to accelerate whilst immediately behind the target. Get the view first by moving the car out, in the correct gear for the speed so that the tachometer is somewhere around 3000 revs.
whilst moving the car out do not decrease the distance between the target and the front of your own car by accelerating.
How many times have you seen drivers trying to get a view by almost winding their necks out of the drivers window to see past the target? I sometimes wonder if they are going to appear with a 4 foot neck to get a view.
Move the whole car for the view, it is much easier.
Once you are out and have a view, you can make a decision. With the correct gear selected, you can either go past the target if the overtake is safe and is available. If it is not, you simply steer the car back into the position you have maintained behind the target therefore averting the need to use any braking at all.
Think of a gun and a target. You do not fire a gun at a target you cannot see. This is the big mistake that people make when they commence and overtake.
1) They are too far back,
2) They accelerate on the same side as the target decreasing the distance rapidly between them,
3) They then swoop out under power and see that the situation has changed and the overtake is not available and too close to the target vehicle which requires extra steering to get out and then back again once past the target.
4) They have a huge amount of momentum to lose to get back in safely behind the target vehicle.
5) This requires braking and steering at the same time which can be a recipe for a disaster.
6) This worries the person driving the target vehicle!
The correct way is to get the view first decide on whether it is on or it is not. If it is on with the correct gear selected, then go for it but do not keep accelerating once level with the target, certainly not once you have past it unless you are going for multi overtakes. If there is a gap for you to pull into and you accelerate beyond the target you will nearly always have to brake because you will still be increasing your momentum.
Acceleration sense is the ability to vary the speed of the vehicle through accurate use of the accelerator to meet changing road and traffic conditions (so says road Craft) and is only really easy to demonstrate and not explain. If you can pass the target safely and then drop back into the gap without braking, it not only feels good but looks very professional too.
The triangle principle is a good one too.
It is the correct way to pass the target by accelerating and cutting an oblique angle across the front of the target to get back to the correct side.
By that I do not mean cutting them up!!!!!
This is hugely preferable to making a yawing curve around the target.
Overtaking is the most dangerous manouvre you can make. It is normally at higher speeds and has the possiblity of very high combined impact speeds if it goes wrong.
Unless you know what you are doing or have someone demonstrate this method, be very careful where and when you try it. It may be the last time you do!
THIS IS THE PROPER WAY TO DO THIS BUT YOU NEED TRAINING IN HOW TO PERFECT IT
>> Edited by madcop on Friday 27th June 20:00
Steve, this is about the most accurate and realistic answer to ANY thread that I have read on Pistonheads yet. And probably the most important.
Cheers Mojo.
>> Edited by MoJocvh on Saturday 28th June 00:19
On the overtaking subject someone I know has a theory that when overtaking and it all starts going pearshaped as the oncoming traffic is closer than you thought or moving faster than you thought, you should accelrate and not brake.
This is on the theory that at the end of the day the person you are overtaking will brake and if you both brake you'll never have a gap to get back into, and the oncoming vehicle will also brake. Therefore by accelerating you'll get through into the gap caused by everyone else braking.
Must admit if they don't brake your position is even worse!
Comments please. And no comments saying one shouldn't be overtaking in the first place as that bit is accepted!
This is on the theory that at the end of the day the person you are overtaking will brake and if you both brake you'll never have a gap to get back into, and the oncoming vehicle will also brake. Therefore by accelerating you'll get through into the gap caused by everyone else braking.
Must admit if they don't brake your position is even worse!
Comments please. And no comments saying one shouldn't be overtaking in the first place as that bit is accepted!
deltaf said:
I suspect that the 3000rpm reference is due to the engine being at last in the best part of the torqueband for the best acceleration, and therefore the lowest TED.
You need to give yourself the maximum amount of acceleration possible. 3000 revs is about the middle of the torque band for most cars.
You do not want to be starting an overtake at 2000 revs and then having to drop down a gear to get the car shifting. This loses time and is not preferable to have one hand off the steering wheel whilst applying progressive acceleration to facilitate a gear change.
Chrisgr31 said:
On the overtaking subject someone I know has a theory that when overtaking and it all starts going pearshaped as the oncoming traffic is closer than you thought or moving faster than you thought, you should accelrate and not brake.
Then if this is the situation, the overtake was not planned properly, planned at all or badly planned.
Chrisgr31 said:
This is on the theory that at the end of the day the person you are overtaking will brake
He puts an awful lot of faith in other peoples good will, especially if you have just pi55ed them off.
Chrisgr31 said:
and if you both brake you'll never have a gap to get back into, and the oncoming vehicle will also brake. Therefore by accelerating you'll get through into the gap caused by everyone else braking.
Perhaps you would like to divulge this persons name. Personally, I will avoid him at all cost especially if he decides to overtake
He takes no account of the fact that everyone braking to make room under rapidly changing circumstances to allow someone who is travelling at considerably more velocity on the wrong side is a recipe for disaster.
It is wrong, does nothing for the confidence of any passengers, would at least be retorted with fist wringing hand gesticulations and headlight flashing by others involved and could lead to an NIP arriving the following week OR MUCH WORSE!
He is forcing other people to make quick and vital decisions to allow for his own miscalulations. This is not a recipe for harmony and peace aamongst men!
Chrisgr31 said:
Must admit if they don't brake your position is even worse!
You have just spotted the major weakness in this plan of action
Chrisgr31 said:
Comments please. And no comments saying one shouldn't be overtaking in the first place as that bit is accepted!
Overtaking is dangerous. To do so in the manner your friend prescribes is not only bad manners but is likely to become a lot more serious.
You can make good, fast and well planned progress on the roads without resorting to bullying tactics, drawing attention to yourself and making other peoples perception of you as a complete wank3r a reality
IF YOU DO IT PROPERLY
>> Edited by madcop on Saturday 28th June 09:29
>> Edited by madcop on Saturday 28th June 09:31
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff