Yet another tragic chase..
Discussion
I keep banging on about how I am in opposition to high speed police driving and the need for ever faster pursuit vehicles which I just consider to be willy waving by the police.
As allways events keep popping up to justify my argument.
Wifes Boss burgled last weekend both his cars and keys stolen.
One was driven away and then abandoned (minus the plasma tv and some other stuff)
The other was chased by police the pursuit ending when the thief lost control and had a head on collision with another car.
Someones xmas really spoiled there (The family of the car involved in the head on).
The burglary victim himself wasn't worried about the burglary saying he was just happy his family were ok.
Same cant be said of the poor family on the road.
The car stolen a Golf R32 , the pursuing police car a scooby.
As mentioned before by me , when are the police going to accept my recomendation.
Police pursuit vehicles to be 2.0 ltr diesels anyting that outruns them is too fast and dangerous , abandon chase.
As allways events keep popping up to justify my argument.
Wifes Boss burgled last weekend both his cars and keys stolen.
One was driven away and then abandoned (minus the plasma tv and some other stuff)
The other was chased by police the pursuit ending when the thief lost control and had a head on collision with another car.
Someones xmas really spoiled there (The family of the car involved in the head on).
The burglary victim himself wasn't worried about the burglary saying he was just happy his family were ok.
Same cant be said of the poor family on the road.
The car stolen a Golf R32 , the pursuing police car a scooby.
As mentioned before by me , when are the police going to accept my recomendation.
Police pursuit vehicles to be 2.0 ltr diesels anyting that outruns them is too fast and dangerous , abandon chase.
Edited by mark69sheer on Tuesday 20th November 22:47
mark69sheer said:
Police pursuit vehicles to be 2.0 ltr diesels anyting that outruns them is too fast and dangerous , abandon chase.
Nice. Think I'll steal a fast Saab or maybe an M5, that way when I bundle a kid into the back seat nobody will bother to chase me.Never give in to criminals. EVER.
Parrot of Doom said:
mark69sheer said:
Police pursuit vehicles to be 2.0 ltr diesels anyting that outruns them is too fast and dangerous , abandon chase.
Nice. Think I'll steal a fast Saab or maybe an M5, that way when I bundle a kid into the back seat nobody will bother to chase me.Never give in to criminals. EVER.
who in there right mind would steal a saab
mark69sheer said:
As mentioned before by me , when are the police going to accept my recomendation.
They wont, who are you to advise?mark69sheer said:
Police pursuit vehicles to be 2.0 ltr diesels anyting that outruns them is too fast and dangerous , abandon chase.
So the non pursuit situations that Traffic attend as a matter or urgency don't justify anything more?. I disagree. Edited by mark69sheer on Tuesday 20th November 22:47
The lack of skill of the bandit cars to blame, not the vehicle the officers are driving in. You don't know the circs of this pursuit, may I suggest you check what actually happened before offering more 'advice' to the Police.
But anyway, its your opinion which you're entitled to, doesn't mean its right.
Parrot of Doom said:
mark69sheer said:
Police pursuit vehicles to be 2.0 ltr diesels anyting that outruns them is too fast and dangerous , abandon chase.
Nice. Think I'll steal a fast Saab or maybe an M5, that way when I bundle a kid into the back seat nobody will bother to chase me.Never give in to criminals. EVER.
Lets say your 2.0TDI mondeo police car is being outrun, so chase is aborted. What happens to lowlife in powerful R32, who's to say they dont decide to drive like fools for the fun of it anyway, lets face it, they probably high on somthing, probably why the did the burglary in the first place. So they still wipe out the innocent family head on, and run from scene, get away with it.
No one wants to see innocent people injured or worse but at least with a scooby behind them, they all gonna get knicked.
Essex police have a loads of T5 volvo's and I had a road side chat with a very nice man in a marked Evo 9 the other day. I'm glad they have these cars, I even gladder they let me off.
Never give in to criminals. EVER.
No one wants to see innocent people injured or worse but at least with a scooby behind them, they all gonna get knicked.
Essex police have a loads of T5 volvo's and I had a road side chat with a very nice man in a marked Evo 9 the other day. I'm glad they have these cars, I even gladder they let me off.
Never give in to criminals. EVER.
mark69sheer said:
Police pursuit vehicles to be 2.0 ltr diesels anything that outruns them is too fast and dangerous , abandon chase.
Brilliant ideai quite fancy this car http://www.pistonheads.com/members/showcar.asp?carId=59670
But to continue your logic the police should not pursue any car that is capable of reaching lethal speeds which would include the highly dangerous metro 1.1L
Edited by thinfourth2 on Wednesday 21st November 00:35
thinfourth2 said:
But to continue your logic the police should not pursue any car that is capable of reaching lethal speeds which would include the highly dangerous metro 1.1L
Indeed. In Bristol over the weekend 4 chavscum were driving like lunatics in such a vehicle, not a sniff of police behind them but went straight into the side of a taxi. Cabbie exited taxi through passenger window.Stupid little
s like this will always drive like lunatics, I'd rather we had the tools to pursue. Of course, driver education (BiB) is the main thing needed- To build in discretion and good judgement in deciding whether to pursue.I think we should all have bicycles.....
Seriously though, yes, there is room for improvement for police driver training and the cars that we are given.
training wise (and I can only speak for my force) the driver training has evolved massively over the last couple of years or so as the powers that be have tried to tailor the training to fit with the driving conditions that we face.
Unfortunately, as with everything, the human factor still plays a part. People do drive outside the training and they do drive outside their limits. These tend to be the less experienced drivers and once bitten, they tend to 'calm' down and drive to the system as taught.
Having done an advanced course, I do feel that we are given the right training for the job at hand. This training has then got to be combined with experience and you only get that by going out and doing it.
The major improvement that I can see is that there is more emphasis on re-testing the drivers skills so that they are not put into situations that they cannot handle. Should they need further training then that is no bad thing.
Car-wise, most police drivers are either response or basic drivers. They drive the standard 1.7ltr Astra or the Transit vans. These, I feel, whilst sufficient power wise, could benefit from being designed from the wheels up as a dedicated police vehicle.
A small percentage of police drivers will be 'advanced' status. We get the 3.0 Vectra V6 or BMW 530D. These drivers are trained in pursuit management and will have passed an advanced course.
I think that police cars need to be designed as police cars rather than be off the shelf family saloons that we get now. These should all be equipped with IDR's and provida (these can be used to monitor driver behaviour and possible abuse of exemptions) and they will also aid investigations.
As per the original post though, without knowing the full circs, you cannot blame the police driver on that scant information alone. I fully accept that the police may have been partly to blame but you cannot make that assumption without further information.
I'll also add this, the driver of the LOS made the choice not to stop. The blame should stop and rest with him. He's the one who has crashed into innocent bystanders, not the police.
I sincerely hope that the innocent family are not badly hurt but I think that you should let the investigating force and the IPCC (if involved) do their job and investigate...
Seriously though, yes, there is room for improvement for police driver training and the cars that we are given.
training wise (and I can only speak for my force) the driver training has evolved massively over the last couple of years or so as the powers that be have tried to tailor the training to fit with the driving conditions that we face.
Unfortunately, as with everything, the human factor still plays a part. People do drive outside the training and they do drive outside their limits. These tend to be the less experienced drivers and once bitten, they tend to 'calm' down and drive to the system as taught.
Having done an advanced course, I do feel that we are given the right training for the job at hand. This training has then got to be combined with experience and you only get that by going out and doing it.
The major improvement that I can see is that there is more emphasis on re-testing the drivers skills so that they are not put into situations that they cannot handle. Should they need further training then that is no bad thing.
Car-wise, most police drivers are either response or basic drivers. They drive the standard 1.7ltr Astra or the Transit vans. These, I feel, whilst sufficient power wise, could benefit from being designed from the wheels up as a dedicated police vehicle.
A small percentage of police drivers will be 'advanced' status. We get the 3.0 Vectra V6 or BMW 530D. These drivers are trained in pursuit management and will have passed an advanced course.
I think that police cars need to be designed as police cars rather than be off the shelf family saloons that we get now. These should all be equipped with IDR's and provida (these can be used to monitor driver behaviour and possible abuse of exemptions) and they will also aid investigations.
As per the original post though, without knowing the full circs, you cannot blame the police driver on that scant information alone. I fully accept that the police may have been partly to blame but you cannot make that assumption without further information.
I'll also add this, the driver of the LOS made the choice not to stop. The blame should stop and rest with him. He's the one who has crashed into innocent bystanders, not the police.
I sincerely hope that the innocent family are not badly hurt but I think that you should let the investigating force and the IPCC (if involved) do their job and investigate...
hairydave-hd vti said:
if we had a load more coppers, who's funding was spent better, i wonder if the police would need faster cars? an number of well organized 530d tourings with motorolas and a chopper would catch most things more safely, or am i going a bit mental?
No you are not but this is what Blair left us with, so what the tax paying public expect and deserve is different from what we get!!!So far as vehicle pursuits are concerned I have been involved in a fair amount in my time so I speak from experience when I say that it is not fun, nor are you oblivious to the hazards but it is reality that if criminals were not pursued then they would commit more crime due to a lack of any deterrent.
Unfortunately their will always be innocent victims while that type of behaviour exists which is exactly why the courts need to hand down sentences that make a life of crime seem like a far less attractive prospect.
Sorry you are correct its not my recomendation simply my opinion.
I do have no authority of course.
I have had my head round and round in circles trying to see an obvious solution but I can't see one.
In this case the car that wasn't chased was sinply abandoned.
The car that was chased crashed.
Yes the party to blame was the thief who wouldn't stop
However I am not a fan of standing on moral high ground surveying a scene of devastation.
In this case a crime (burglary) ended in a worse tradgedy.
It wasn't the polices fault but . .
I am not a fan of 'giving in' to criminals or setting the prescedent that they know they won't be caught.
But as an alternative to serious injury and death of innocents it has its merits.
It does depend on the circumstances of course.
In this case they were chasing after property.
There is an argument to chase any reported kidnappers or armed robbers because in those circumstances you are hypothetically going to save a life not just retrieve stolen goods.
No I don't want to give in to crime either but nor do I want to have an accident with someone hightailing towards me with the police in pursuit.
The whole ethos of a pursuit relies on the criminal making a mistake.
If the criminal can drive well he could hypothetically keep going till he ran out of juice or drove away from the police.
The only way the pursuit can end is when something stops the car thats being pursued. These guys have broken the law and so have a vested interest to keep going even if the situation becomes ludicrously dangerous as we have seen so often on TV
I do have no authority of course.
I have had my head round and round in circles trying to see an obvious solution but I can't see one.
In this case the car that wasn't chased was sinply abandoned.
The car that was chased crashed.
Yes the party to blame was the thief who wouldn't stop
However I am not a fan of standing on moral high ground surveying a scene of devastation.
In this case a crime (burglary) ended in a worse tradgedy.
It wasn't the polices fault but . .
I am not a fan of 'giving in' to criminals or setting the prescedent that they know they won't be caught.
But as an alternative to serious injury and death of innocents it has its merits.
It does depend on the circumstances of course.
In this case they were chasing after property.
There is an argument to chase any reported kidnappers or armed robbers because in those circumstances you are hypothetically going to save a life not just retrieve stolen goods.
No I don't want to give in to crime either but nor do I want to have an accident with someone hightailing towards me with the police in pursuit.
The whole ethos of a pursuit relies on the criminal making a mistake.
If the criminal can drive well he could hypothetically keep going till he ran out of juice or drove away from the police.
The only way the pursuit can end is when something stops the car thats being pursued. These guys have broken the law and so have a vested interest to keep going even if the situation becomes ludicrously dangerous as we have seen so often on TV
mark69sheer said:
The only way the pursuit can end is when something stops the car thats being pursued.
Indeed, I believe it's called a 'stinger'.Your plan to give immunity from pursuit to criminals once they step into a car and drive dangerously will please them greatly. It will hugely increase the number of criminals driving dangerously with impunity for whatever minor violation they may have committed because they will now be sure that driving like a suicidal idiot will guarantee their escape. Your plan is reactionary and ill-conceived. Police pursuits are the necessary lesser of the two evils.
biglepton said:
mark69sheer said:
The only way the pursuit can end is when something stops the car thats being pursued.
Indeed, I believe it's called a 'stinger'.Your plan to give immunity from pursuit to criminals once they step into a car and drive dangerously will please them greatly. It will hugely increase the number of criminals driving dangerously with impunity for whatever minor violation they may have committed because they will now be sure that driving like a suicidal idiot will guarantee their escape. Your plan is reactionary and ill-conceived. Police pursuits are the necessary lesser of the two evils.
If its too expensive to keep prisoners in this country then sub the buggers out.
Taiwan or wherever will love to get a fifth of what it costs to keep a prisoner in this country. They would love to build as many cells as we needed out there. Prison overcrowding solved at a stroke.
Then we can jail any mofo we want without worrying about lowering sentences to free jail space etc.
If every scroat who should be in jail was in jail right now there would be a huge resuction in the need for any pursuits at all.
mark69sheer said:
I keep banging on about how I am in opposition to high speed police driving and the need for ever faster pursuit vehicles which I just consider to be willy waving by the police.
As allways events keep popping up to justify my argument.
Wifes Boss burgled last weekend both his cars and keys stolen.
One was driven away and then abandoned (minus the plasma tv and some other stuff)
The other was chased by police the pursuit ending when the thief lost control and had a head on collision with another car.
Someones xmas really spoiled there (The family of the car involved in the head on).
The burglary victim himself wasn't worried about the burglary saying he was just happy his family were ok.
Same cant be said of the poor family on the road.
The car stolen a Golf R32 , the pursuing police car a scooby.
As mentioned before by me , when are the police going to accept my recomendation.
Police pursuit vehicles to be 2.0 ltr diesels anyting that outruns them is too fast and dangerous , abandon chase.
Your entitled to your opinion.My opinion is your wrong and your comments and ideas are quite mad.As allways events keep popping up to justify my argument.
Wifes Boss burgled last weekend both his cars and keys stolen.
One was driven away and then abandoned (minus the plasma tv and some other stuff)
The other was chased by police the pursuit ending when the thief lost control and had a head on collision with another car.
Someones xmas really spoiled there (The family of the car involved in the head on).
The burglary victim himself wasn't worried about the burglary saying he was just happy his family were ok.
Same cant be said of the poor family on the road.
The car stolen a Golf R32 , the pursuing police car a scooby.
As mentioned before by me , when are the police going to accept my recomendation.
Police pursuit vehicles to be 2.0 ltr diesels anyting that outruns them is too fast and dangerous , abandon chase.
I want the police to chase criminals.I want the police to uphold the law.I want to live in a world where the criminals do not have the upper hand by knowing if they drive a fast car they will be above the law.
If someone broke into my house and stole my property that i had worked hard to get and stole my car then i would want the police to chase it and catch the people who did it.Whats to say next time they were disturbed during the breakin and hurt the house owner.
I accept that there is some level of risk in any chase and i accept that other people may get hurt.I also accept that it could be me that was the one to be hit by a fleeing criminal or in some cases even the police car but in my eyes this is how it has to be.
This is where the world gets softer and softer and more of a nanny state when people like you keep going on like this.
More members of the public are killed in rtc's that did not involve the police than they are in police chases.
So what is your answer to that.....ban everyone from driving?
Edited by TPS on Wednesday 21st November 08:16
Tame Technician said:
Lets say your 2.0TDI mondeo police car is being outrun
Aren't police drivers trained to go fast? From that other thread HertsBiker started about being held up by fast card in the corner, we all know that cornerspeed is king. Surely a handy police driver in a familiar vehicle should be able to easily keep up with an impreza turbo or something else driven by some idiot who's never driven it before?SM
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