Red Light Camera incident tonight - what can i expect?
Discussion
Hi all,
Was driving down an two lane 30mph road tonight (Gt Western Road in Glasgow). It was around 7:15 and still pretty busy due to the rush hour. Was following a long line of cars up to a set of lights that i am ALWAYS very wary of because i know of the red light camera in place. On approaching the lights (which were green at the time) the cars infront of me had to slow down for a car infront taking a left turn. I slowed down to around 15-20mph and followed the cars infront at a safe distance whilst approaching the lights 20-30 yards away - by this time the lights had been green for a while and i was fully expecting them to change. I proceeded at a steady speed of 15-20mph (didnt accelerate as there was a chance the lights could change) up to the lights, by the time i was around 10 meters from the lights they turned to amber and i just managed to notice them (the viewing angle of the lights was not ideal as i was very close to them on my left hand side and had to look up to the top left hand of the windscreen and lean my head forward slightly to see them).
I started braking but was warey that there were cars behind me that i did not know how far exactly they were from me as i was checking the lights.
Anyway i ended up stopping fully, rear of the car just over the white line at the traffic lights either with the lights still amber or just turned to red. I didn't notice a flash but i am worried i will be fined. I sat at the lights until the lights turned green and proceeded on my way.
What can i expect to happen? How long do i need to wait for confirmation of an offence if i have commited one?
Cheers,
Agar
Was driving down an two lane 30mph road tonight (Gt Western Road in Glasgow). It was around 7:15 and still pretty busy due to the rush hour. Was following a long line of cars up to a set of lights that i am ALWAYS very wary of because i know of the red light camera in place. On approaching the lights (which were green at the time) the cars infront of me had to slow down for a car infront taking a left turn. I slowed down to around 15-20mph and followed the cars infront at a safe distance whilst approaching the lights 20-30 yards away - by this time the lights had been green for a while and i was fully expecting them to change. I proceeded at a steady speed of 15-20mph (didnt accelerate as there was a chance the lights could change) up to the lights, by the time i was around 10 meters from the lights they turned to amber and i just managed to notice them (the viewing angle of the lights was not ideal as i was very close to them on my left hand side and had to look up to the top left hand of the windscreen and lean my head forward slightly to see them).
I started braking but was warey that there were cars behind me that i did not know how far exactly they were from me as i was checking the lights.
Anyway i ended up stopping fully, rear of the car just over the white line at the traffic lights either with the lights still amber or just turned to red. I didn't notice a flash but i am worried i will be fined. I sat at the lights until the lights turned green and proceeded on my way.
What can i expect to happen? How long do i need to wait for confirmation of an offence if i have commited one?
Cheers,
Agar
http://www.speedcamerasuk.com/traffic-light-camera...
I think you would hav a good case if they tried to prosecute you for crossing the line. Slippy road, heavy traffic etc. Best of luck with it.
I think you would hav a good case if they tried to prosecute you for crossing the line. Slippy road, heavy traffic etc. Best of luck with it.
The offence occurs if any part of the vehicle proceeds beyond the stop line with the light showing red.
If part of the vehicle was already past the line when the light went red, an offence would have been committed if the vehicle moved forward with the red light showing.
No offence is committed if the vehicle was straddling the line when the light changed to red but stayed put until the lights changed back to green.
Anyway, I suspect you would have noticed the flashes (2) if you had triggered the camera - they are chuffin' bright..
And the camera is not 'armed' immediately upon the light changing to red - there is a slight delay..
If part of the vehicle was already past the line when the light went red, an offence would have been committed if the vehicle moved forward with the red light showing.
No offence is committed if the vehicle was straddling the line when the light changed to red but stayed put until the lights changed back to green.
Anyway, I suspect you would have noticed the flashes (2) if you had triggered the camera - they are chuffin' bright..
And the camera is not 'armed' immediately upon the light changing to red - there is a slight delay..
SS2. said:
The offence occurs if any part of the vehicle proceeds beyond the stop line with the light showing red.
If part of the vehicle was already past the line when the light went red, an offence would have been committed if the vehicle moved forward with the red light showing.
No offence is committed if the vehicle was straddling the line when the light changed to red but stayed put until the lights changed back to green.
Anyway, I suspect you would have noticed the flashes (2) if you had triggered the camera - they are chuffin' bright..
And the camera is not 'armed' immediately upon the light changing to red - there is a slight delay..
Not my understanding.If part of the vehicle was already past the line when the light went red, an offence would have been committed if the vehicle moved forward with the red light showing.
No offence is committed if the vehicle was straddling the line when the light changed to red but stayed put until the lights changed back to green.
Anyway, I suspect you would have noticed the flashes (2) if you had triggered the camera - they are chuffin' bright..
And the camera is not 'armed' immediately upon the light changing to red - there is a slight delay..
Once part of your vehicle has crossed the white stop line prior to the light changing, the vehicle is in the junction. There is no offence for continuing through the junction after that. Did have to argue that a few years back (and won). If anyone knows different then please shout.
Eliminator said:
SS2. said:
The offence occurs if any part of the vehicle proceeds beyond the stop line with the light showing red.
Not my understanding.Once part of your vehicle has crossed the white stop line prior to the light changing, the vehicle is in the junction. There is no offence for continuing through the junction after that. Did have to argue that a few years back (and won). If anyone knows different then please shout.
).Its obviously the case that if the vehicle has already crossed the stop line before the lights change to red then no offence is committed if the vehicle proceeds.
The stop line is the key and its that which must not be proceeded 'over' whilst the lights are showing red..
flemke said:
This is not a box junction, is it?
No not that im aware of.It would seem i have stopped in a non box junction when the lights were red - is this an offence? I was in a position so as i did not hinder any other cars' progress through the junction from any entrance.
Is there a 14 day only period in which they can prosecute me for this?
AGAR said:
Is there a 14 day only period in which they can prosecute me for this?
s.1 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 makes it a requirement that a Notice of Intended Prosecution be served upon the Registered Keeper of the vehicle within 14 days of an alleged offence. If they fail to satisfy S.1 RTOA*, then they cannot prosecute the offence to which the notice refers.
The day of the alleged offence is not included when computing the 14 days.
(* - the police can claim certain exemptions, but if your vehicle is registered to you and your DVLA details are correct, then these are unlikely to apply in your case)..
SS2. said:
AGAR said:
Is there a 14 day only period in which they can prosecute me for this?
s.1 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 makes it a requirement that a Notice of Intended Prosecution be served upon the Registered Keeper of the vehicle within 14 days of an alleged offence. If they fail to satisfy S.1 RTOA*, then they cannot prosecute the offence to which the notice refers.
The day of the alleged offence is not included when computing the 14 days.
(* - the police can claim certain exemptions, but if your vehicle is registered to you and your DVLA details are correct, then these are unlikely to apply in your case)..
Cheers for the advice.
AGAR said:
flemke said:
This is not a box junction, is it?
No not that im aware of.It would seem i have stopped in a non box junction when the lights were red - is this an offence? I was in a position so as i did not hinder any other cars' progress through the junction from any entrance.
Is there a 14 day only period in which they can prosecute me for this?
Having done that, you are not obliged to carry on through the junction if you think that by doing so you would be creating a hazard to other road users - such as if a pedestrian were to try to cross the junction in front of you before his light had turned to green.
The exception to this is a box junction, in which you are never allowed to come to a full stop.
AGAR said:
Thought as much, a few years ago the Police/Fiscal failed to satisfy S.1 RTOA* against the person who knocked down my father who has been left permanently disabled, and hence justice was never served.
Curious.. S.1 RTOA 1988 does not require to be complied with where accidents are involved.SS2. said:
AGAR said:
Thought as much, a few years ago the Police/Fiscal failed to satisfy S.1 RTOA* against the person who knocked down my father who has been left permanently disabled, and hence justice was never served.
Curious.. S.1 RTOA 1988 does not require to be complied with where accidents are involved.Okay lets put the legal beagles in their place and lets look at a few practical aspects
The back of the car was behind the white line and i guess the camera would be mounted very close to the white line looking forwards. So unless there is some very very clever optics involving mirrors etc it ain't going to be able to see the number plates on either end of the car. No number plates no way to find who to send the tax demand to.
I think you should be okay at this point
The back of the car was behind the white line and i guess the camera would be mounted very close to the white line looking forwards. So unless there is some very very clever optics involving mirrors etc it ain't going to be able to see the number plates on either end of the car. No number plates no way to find who to send the tax demand to.
I think you should be okay at this point
flemke said:
The exception to this is a box junction, in which you are never allowed to come to a full stop.
Just to clarify. You are allowed to stop in a box junction. You are not meant to enter it if your exit is blocked, but if it isn't -- eg. you're turning right and waiting for oncoming traffic to clear -- then you're allowed to stop. The focus is on whether your exit is clear, not whether you have to stop in the junction.Sadly it seems that box markings are falling out of use. Instead we have the inane "keep clear" plastered all over the road wherever there's a possibility that someone might otherwise block a side road turning or similar. I guess it's because people didn't understand the term "unless your exit is clear"?
Peter Ward said:
flemke said:
The exception to this is a box junction, in which you are never allowed to come to a full stop.
Just to clarify. You are allowed to stop in a box junction. You are not meant to enter it if your exit is blocked, but if it isn't -- eg. you're turning right and waiting for oncoming traffic to clear -- then you're allowed to stop. The focus is on whether your exit is clear, not whether you have to stop in the junction.Sadly it seems that box markings are falling out of use. Instead we have the inane "keep clear" plastered all over the road wherever there's a possibility that someone might otherwise block a side road turning or similar. I guess it's because people didn't understand the term "unless your exit is clear"?
The interesting thing to me is that apparently there is no lower limit on the speed that one can take across a box J, so if it is unexpectedly starting to look sticky, one could creep forward (alternative to stopping) as slowly as the car will go.
flemke said:
Peter Ward said:
flemke said:
The exception to this is a box junction, in which you are never allowed to come to a full stop.
Just to clarify. You are allowed to stop in a box junction. You are not meant to enter it if your exit is blocked, but if it isn't -- eg. you're turning right and waiting for oncoming traffic to clear -- then you're allowed to stop. The focus is on whether your exit is clear, not whether you have to stop in the junction.Sadly it seems that box markings are falling out of use. Instead we have the inane "keep clear" plastered all over the road wherever there's a possibility that someone might otherwise block a side road turning or similar. I guess it's because people didn't understand the term "unless your exit is clear"?
The interesting thing to me is that apparently there is no lower limit on the speed that one can take across a box J, so if it is unexpectedly starting to look sticky, one could creep forward (alternative to stopping) as slowly as the car will go.
I understand that this is more difficult on todays more crowded urban roads, but people are getting into the habit of blindly following the train of vehicles ahead into these junctions, and then acting surprised when the line of traffic stops and they end up stuck in the middle of the box.
Don't follow a line of vehicles into a box junction - set an example when the traffic is heavy and wait for the car in front to clear the junction completely before entering it yourself.
thinfourth2 said:
Okay lets put the legal beagles in their place and lets look at a few practical aspects
The back of the car was behind the white line and i guess the camera would be mounted very close to the white line looking forwards.
So you put the 'legal beagles in their place' by guesswork ? The back of the car was behind the white line and i guess the camera would be mounted very close to the white line looking forwards.
R_U_LOCAL said:
If you observe box junctions correctly, it shouldn't "unexpectedly start to look sticky". The rule says that you shouldn't enter the junction unless your exit is already clear. That means that there should already be enough space for your vehicle on an unmarked section of road beyond the box junction before you actually enter the boxed area.
I understand that this is more difficult on todays more crowded urban roads, but people are getting into the habit of blindly following the train of vehicles ahead into these junctions, and then acting surprised when the line of traffic stops and they end up stuck in the middle of the box.
Don't follow a line of vehicles into a box junction - set an example when the traffic is heavy and wait for the car in front to clear the junction completely before entering it yourself.
Agreed that most of the time one can look far ahead, then in the middle distance, and get a good idea of the flow.I understand that this is more difficult on todays more crowded urban roads, but people are getting into the habit of blindly following the train of vehicles ahead into these junctions, and then acting surprised when the line of traffic stops and they end up stuck in the middle of the box.
Don't follow a line of vehicles into a box junction - set an example when the traffic is heavy and wait for the car in front to clear the junction completely before entering it yourself.
On the other hand, I cannot see how, in London, for example, it is practicable to heed the rule literally and without exception.
There are many box junctions that are between 70 and 100 feet or more across. In heavy, gradual traffic, if one really were to wait until there was a full, open space at the far side of the box (as opposed to moving on the reasonable expectation of an open space, based on one's forward observation), there often would be no more than one or two cars that made it across within a green phase.
If the traffic is creeping, of course you stay put until you've got a full space available on the other side. If the traffic is moving somewhat, and there are decent gaps between the cars on the far side so that you can expect them to close those gaps and leave a space for you even if the flow itself were to cease, then it's sensible to go with the flow, rather than halting it.
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