In court for not signing NIP
Discussion
Right, there is a colleague of mine that was done for speeding not long ago by a gatso that was in no way yellow. As such she sent the NIP back but did not sign it. She has received no further communication until now and it says she is in court?
There is an option to send a letter before the trial but it seems she is now not being given the option to just pay despite the scamera being a covert one. What can be done about this? I think she is now willing to just pay the fine and put it down to bad luck.
There is an option to send a letter before the trial but it seems she is now not being given the option to just pay despite the scamera being a covert one. What can be done about this? I think she is now willing to just pay the fine and put it down to bad luck.
moleamol said:
Right, there is a colleague of mine that was done for speeding not long ago by a gatso that was in no way yellow. As such she sent the NIP back but did not sign it. She has received no further communication until now and it says she is in court?
There is an option to send a letter before the trial but it seems she is now not being given the option to just pay despite the scamera being a covert one. What can be done about this? I think she is now willing to just pay the fine and put it down to bad luck.
I don't understand the issue - this is precisely the procedure on the non-signing route. She has not accepted the offer of a fixed penalty/points, and so goes to court. The non-signing then becomes crucial since an unsigned NIP is inadmissible as evidence. Tell her to keep going!
The non-yellow, hidden camera won't make any difference since these are guidelines, not law. The alleged offense is still the same.
However, if the camera is in a netting-off area, then letters to both the local scamera partnership/council and the treasury pointing out the breach in the netting-off conditions should be made, which should also point out that all netting-off proceeds are forfeited if the conditions are not met.
Oh, and tell her to join the ABD.
Size Nine Elm said:No, I'll just show her this and blame it on you
I don't understand the issue - this is precisely the procedure on the non-signing route. She has not accepted the offer of a fixed penalty/points, and so goes to court. The non-signing then becomes crucial since an unsigned NIP is inadmissible as evidence. Tell her to keep going!
So you're saying that if she now goes to court she can claim that the unsigned NIP is inadmissable and get off with it? What is the ABD? I think the court thing is a bit scary. Or is the idea just to scare people into paying since they know the loophole exists?
email me if you like There has been lots of replies on here over the past few months with people saying dont sign the NIP etc etc and i havent heard of anyone come on here personally to say what has happened when it went to court (if they have then i apologise because ive missed it).
Im just very interested to hear what happens in this situation.
I personally think that she will be questioned and it will go ahead........but as ive said...im interested to know.
Im just very interested to hear what happens in this situation.
I personally think that she will be questioned and it will go ahead........but as ive said...im interested to know.
Right one VITAL point.
How was she caught? If there is a photo cleanly showing her as the driver then an unsigned NIP won't count for
If there is no other evidence, just the nip, she's got a fighting chance.
Do you have to answer questions in court?
If you're allowed to remain silent, or enter a not-guilty plea by post she's pretty much home free I'd think.
Good Luck!
How was she caught? If there is a photo cleanly showing her as the driver then an unsigned NIP won't count for
If there is no other evidence, just the nip, she's got a fighting chance.
Do you have to answer questions in court?
If you're allowed to remain silent, or enter a not-guilty plea by post she's pretty much home free I'd think.
Good Luck!
Can people please read the posting on this issue carefully as the answers such as they are, are all there. First question what is she being prosecuted for? There are two options, and she could be prosecuted for both:-
1. The speeding offence
Here the position is fairly clear. R V Pickford has established the unsigned NIP cannot be used in evidence for the speeding offence. So the question will be is the picture sufficiently clear to identify the diver. Since the prosecution has started then the defendant has a right to see any prosecution evidence so she will be able to get a copy of the picture and on that basis will be able to decide how to plead.
2. Failure to identify the Driver s172(1)
Here the position is far from clear. The Article 6 ECHR issue has been decided in the UK courts against the defendant, although an appeal is progressing to the Court in Luxembourg a decision may take years. On the issue as to whether an unsigned NIP is or is not in breech of s172(1) there is no applicable case Law although R V Bromfield dealt with failure to sign the circumstances are very different.
Please can the next post not say but you are not required to sign it! That is correct but neither does the legislation say are you not required to sign. So any decision by a court will depend on a number of factors, I have listed some in other posts. It is more than possible that the defendant will lose.
What ever the case she now need a good lawyer who has experience in road traffic cases. There are several mentioned on abd.uk.org. Not sure of the cost but do not expect to get much change out of £2,000, and maybe twice that if you have to appeal.
1. The speeding offence
Here the position is fairly clear. R V Pickford has established the unsigned NIP cannot be used in evidence for the speeding offence. So the question will be is the picture sufficiently clear to identify the diver. Since the prosecution has started then the defendant has a right to see any prosecution evidence so she will be able to get a copy of the picture and on that basis will be able to decide how to plead.
2. Failure to identify the Driver s172(1)
Here the position is far from clear. The Article 6 ECHR issue has been decided in the UK courts against the defendant, although an appeal is progressing to the Court in Luxembourg a decision may take years. On the issue as to whether an unsigned NIP is or is not in breech of s172(1) there is no applicable case Law although R V Bromfield dealt with failure to sign the circumstances are very different.
Please can the next post not say but you are not required to sign it! That is correct but neither does the legislation say are you not required to sign. So any decision by a court will depend on a number of factors, I have listed some in other posts. It is more than possible that the defendant will lose.
What ever the case she now need a good lawyer who has experience in road traffic cases. There are several mentioned on abd.uk.org. Not sure of the cost but do not expect to get much change out of £2,000, and maybe twice that if you have to appeal.
It depends on whether she is prepared to fight it or not. I would certainly ask for the evidence (ie picture) before making the choice. Even if she thinks she is likely to cave in and take the points. It will give her some time to think and allow her to be certain it is her car etc. For example if they don't produce the evidence then there is no case to answer.
If you attend court they cannot make you give evidence. If you don't give evidence then they cannot ask you questions (such as were you driving the car at this time). Even if you are defending yourself they cannot ask you unless you go to the witness box.
Does it really cost £2000 for a lawyer to attend court with you for a speeding offence?
I would also recommend she talk to a lawyer about this. One of the ones on the ABD site would be a good start or the one who won the Pickford case might be a good chap to talk to for initial advice.
It really does all depend on whether she wants to stand up for a point of principal or a quite life.
If you attend court they cannot make you give evidence. If you don't give evidence then they cannot ask you questions (such as were you driving the car at this time). Even if you are defending yourself they cannot ask you unless you go to the witness box.
Does it really cost £2000 for a lawyer to attend court with you for a speeding offence?
I would also recommend she talk to a lawyer about this. One of the ones on the ABD site would be a good start or the one who won the Pickford case might be a good chap to talk to for initial advice.
It really does all depend on whether she wants to stand up for a point of principal or a quite life.
My suggestion would be to speak to a lawyer. My understanding is that the NIP has been completed with the name and address of the driver but has not been signed. I also understand that if it is not signed it cannot be used as evidence to confirm who was driving when someone is charged with speeding.
My view, and a am not a lawyer, is that you need someone to stand up, and ask the prosecution whether the form has anything written on it. Prosecution will have to say yes, and give details. Defense lawyer then says the form is completed and ask for the case to be dismissed. The prosecution will presumably then say why they think it doesn't count. To do so they will presumably argue that its not signed, the defense will then have to argue that it does need need to be signed.
Your friend does not want to go in the witness box as if they are asked "Were you the driver" they are stuffed, although presumably they can refuse to answer such questions.
If your friend wins and gets off there will be a lot of happy people about, and one very unhappy government! Reading through the lines I suspect some police officers who post here wouldn't be unhappy if she won!
I would suggest that your friend fnds out the costs of taking this, and asks the ABD, maybe here, and other similar sites for donations to a fighting fund.
My view, and a am not a lawyer, is that you need someone to stand up, and ask the prosecution whether the form has anything written on it. Prosecution will have to say yes, and give details. Defense lawyer then says the form is completed and ask for the case to be dismissed. The prosecution will presumably then say why they think it doesn't count. To do so they will presumably argue that its not signed, the defense will then have to argue that it does need need to be signed.
Your friend does not want to go in the witness box as if they are asked "Were you the driver" they are stuffed, although presumably they can refuse to answer such questions.
If your friend wins and gets off there will be a lot of happy people about, and one very unhappy government! Reading through the lines I suspect some police officers who post here wouldn't be unhappy if she won!
I would suggest that your friend fnds out the costs of taking this, and asks the ABD, maybe here, and other similar sites for donations to a fighting fund.
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