Off duty Bib incident
Discussion
I didn't take much notice of the recent thread in which someone reported an incident with an off-duty WPC because I though it was a bit of a one-off, but something quite similar has just happened to me.
I was driving along the A413 between Aylesbury and Winslow. The traffic was fairly well spread out and easy to overtake
until I reached a convoy of cars moving at about 45 mph, all close together. The rear car was an MGF and I hoped if he wasn't going to overtake, he might drop back and allow me a gap to slot into. I indicated and moved across the road to drop the hint but did not begin the manouevre as there was not yet room. After I'd tried this a couple of times, his window comes down and out comes a police badge. Confused, I dropped back, he carried on and soon turned off and that was the end of it.
Now, what on earth was he trying to say?
1) he saw my last overtaking manouevre
and didn't like it for some reason so he's going to report me?
2) He didn't get that I wanted him to drop back and thought I was going to overtake the whole queue at some outrageous speed.
3) He wasn't going to help me and didn't want to be overtaken at all and used his badge to intimidate me (which worked)
If 1), the only thing I could have been doing is going a little over the limit, which I doubt if he could have judged in his mirrors, if 2) I'm suprised he didn't understand my intent which just leaves 3).
Would a Police officer really use his badge to intimidate?
Sorry for such a long post, but I'm confused and bit worried by this, and I'd appreciate anyone's views, esp the BiBs on this forum.
I was driving along the A413 between Aylesbury and Winslow. The traffic was fairly well spread out and easy to overtake
until I reached a convoy of cars moving at about 45 mph, all close together. The rear car was an MGF and I hoped if he wasn't going to overtake, he might drop back and allow me a gap to slot into. I indicated and moved across the road to drop the hint but did not begin the manouevre as there was not yet room. After I'd tried this a couple of times, his window comes down and out comes a police badge. Confused, I dropped back, he carried on and soon turned off and that was the end of it.
Now, what on earth was he trying to say?
1) he saw my last overtaking manouevre
and didn't like it for some reason so he's going to report me?
2) He didn't get that I wanted him to drop back and thought I was going to overtake the whole queue at some outrageous speed.
3) He wasn't going to help me and didn't want to be overtaken at all and used his badge to intimidate me (which worked)
If 1), the only thing I could have been doing is going a little over the limit, which I doubt if he could have judged in his mirrors, if 2) I'm suprised he didn't understand my intent which just leaves 3).
Would a Police officer really use his badge to intimidate?
Sorry for such a long post, but I'm confused and bit worried by this, and I'd appreciate anyone's views, esp the BiBs on this forum.
as long as you wernt speeding,not crossing a solid white line etc i would have hit the loud peddle and blown the guy out! i wouldnt take any notice of anyone who puts a badge out of the window of their car as they could be a cop,fair enough......but they could also be anything else.when a unmarked police car(astra) tried to pull me over one evening,i just kept on going until i was pulled over by a marked unit as i refuse to stop for someone in an unmarked car.
boxster said:
......until I reached a convoy of cars moving at about 45 mph, all close together. The rear car was an MGF and I hoped if he wasn't going to overtake, he might drop back and allow me a gap to slot into.
So, if they were close together and there was not a gap for you to go into, then why should he allow you to get in front of him. Worse still, why did you think it was in order to try and make him give way to your desire to pass him. You said it yourself, there was no room. If there is no room, stay where you are until room develops naturally.
boxster said:
I indicated and moved across the road to drop the hint but did not begin the manouevre as there was not yet room.
Which is the correct way to plan and execute an overtake. But if it is definately not on, then there is little point in continuing to do this.
boxster said:
After I'd tried this a couple of times, his window comes down and out comes a police badge. Confused, I dropped back, he carried on and soon turned off and that was the end of it.
He was trying to tell you (I would imagine) that there was no where for you to go and that your positioning was starting to worry him into thinking that you may well try and get an 'overtake in' that was not on and cause a problem for someone in the line of vehicles you were behind.
boxster said:
Now, what on earth was he trying to say?
1) he saw my last overtaking manouevre
and didn't like it for some reason so he's going to report me?
You will not find out until after the 14 day period for NIP. If he has taken your registration number and intends to deal with it, he must send you one within the required time limit for this offence (Section 2[dangerous] Section 3[Careless] RTA 1988. After NIP you will be visited and reported if this is the course of action to be pursued.
boxster said:
2) He didn't get that I wanted him to drop back and thought I was going to overtake the whole queue at some outrageous speed.
And why should he do either?
1) Why should he have allowed you to get in front of him just because you showed your intention by positioning?
2) How could he possibly have known your intention by the fact you positioned your car in anticipation to pass SOMEONE as he is not inside your head to know, so assumed the worse case scenario.
a) You are a nutter that is going to try a stupid overtake and put everyone in the queue at risk.
b) You are just a tosser who is pushy when behind the wheel and try to push into a gap that is not there. (not implying you are a tosser, just what might have been going through his head at the time
) boxster said:
3) He wasn't going to help me and didn't want to be overtaken at all and used his badge to intimidate me (which worked)
Why should he have given way to your desire to be in front of him? If the same thing had happened to you by the driver of a vehicle behind you, would you have slowed down to allow him in front of you? (I suspect not
) I suspect he used his badge to re-inforce his decision that in his opinion, you should not try and attempt this manouvre as the risks were too great at that particular time. Any other motorist would not have been in a position to do that and that is one of the advantages of holding the badge. A warning with some proper re-inforcement
boxster said:
If 1), the only thing I could have been doing is going a little over the limit, which I doubt if he could have judged in his mirrors,
If he was driving at or slightly above the limit, then if you caught him then it would be apparent that you were exceeding it by more than him
I would not think that you driving above the limit would in the least bother him if he was off duty (too much stress to cope with otherwise as too many people doing it)
boxster said:
if 2) I'm suprised he didn't understand my intent which just leaves
As stated before, how could he possibly know your intent? That would require interviewing you at least!
boxster said:
3).
Would a Police officer really use his badge to intimidate?
I don't believe he was trying to intimidate you. If he was, it was because you were intimidating everyone at the rear or in fact the whole queue by the signals you were giving of impatience to further your position within that queue.
I believe he was merely trying to advise you of who was watching so that you behaved impecably at that precise moment and the moments that followed.
The maxim in overtaking is If there is no where to go, then stay where you are. No one is going to concede their position in a line of traffic just because of the wishes of someone at the back who appears to want to make progress (unless the blue lights and siren on your vehicle are in operation
). You just have to sit back and bide your time until the opportunity for you to pass into a gap which may develop does actually do so. "SLOWLY, SLOWLY CATCH-E MONKEY" The sort of continual positioning you describe would lead me into the opinion that you were impatient and pushy and required to wind your neck in a little. The badge obviously helped to do this.
Remember "EVERYTHING COMES TO HE WHO WAITS"
>> Edited by madcop on Sunday 13th July 09:57
????????IMHO, absolutely right Mungo and MadCop. I've been at the end of slow lines of traffic, both lanes, and have had cars race up to cut in front of me. I always end up breaking to prevent an accident, as they just come over and don't bother signalling. Seen some close calls, so sometimes I just drop back so that the other guy who needs to be next so badly can wait directly behind the truck instead of me. Then once the first has done it, other cars race up and cut in front of him, so he gets his own crap right back. hahaha. Maybe little cars can't see past my van and just think I'm going slow? Anyway, you only end up a few cars ahead, but no real gain in speed. The cutting in line used to really irritate me, espcecially that automotive bullying where you have to break to prevent an accident, but I've found over a 4 hr trip, it doesn't add that much to my over all time. I used to get stir crazy waiting in traffic too, but never did the weaving (too dangerous in the landbarge I drive!!) Had a big rant on this in General Gassing, sorry to repeat myself.
Madcop - thanks for your detailed response. My actions were based on the following two points from "Roadcraft", under the heading "Assisting others to overtake"
*be alert to the intentions of drivers behind you: use your mirrors and assess whether they wish to overtake or not
*allow enough distance between you and the vehicle in front for the overtaking vehicle to enter the gap.
This is certainly something that I do, and even more: when a following vehicle can make better progress than me, for example a motorbike, I pull over briefly to let it past.
From your post, I understand that this is not accepted practice even among police and I am going to have to revise my expectations of other road users as well.
However, I do think this is a shame because convoys usually form not as a result of a collective decision to arrive together, but because a single driver gets stuck behind a slow moving vehicle, doesn't want to overtake it himself, and doesn't leave enough space to allow the vehicle behind to get in front and have a go at overtaking the obstruction. Obviously, this then propagates back until you have a roadfull of cars going very slowly and some very frustrated drivers at the back. The simpe expedient of leaving enough space for a faster vehicle to leapfrog would end this in one stroke, and at virtually no cost to oneself.
Mungo, I agree it's always a balancing decision whether to overtake. I certainly don't do it just for the sake of it. However, sometimes, being that extra car up can make all the difference. You may be able to do four in one go, but not five for example.
*be alert to the intentions of drivers behind you: use your mirrors and assess whether they wish to overtake or not
*allow enough distance between you and the vehicle in front for the overtaking vehicle to enter the gap.
This is certainly something that I do, and even more: when a following vehicle can make better progress than me, for example a motorbike, I pull over briefly to let it past.
From your post, I understand that this is not accepted practice even among police and I am going to have to revise my expectations of other road users as well.
However, I do think this is a shame because convoys usually form not as a result of a collective decision to arrive together, but because a single driver gets stuck behind a slow moving vehicle, doesn't want to overtake it himself, and doesn't leave enough space to allow the vehicle behind to get in front and have a go at overtaking the obstruction. Obviously, this then propagates back until you have a roadfull of cars going very slowly and some very frustrated drivers at the back. The simpe expedient of leaving enough space for a faster vehicle to leapfrog would end this in one stroke, and at virtually no cost to oneself.
Mungo, I agree it's always a balancing decision whether to overtake. I certainly don't do it just for the sake of it. However, sometimes, being that extra car up can make all the difference. You may be able to do four in one go, but not five for example.
boxster said:
Madcop - thanks for your detailed response. My actions were based on the following two points from "Roadcraft", under the heading "Assisting others to overtake"
*be alert to the intentions of drivers behind you: use your mirrors and assess whether they wish to overtake or not
*allow enough distance between you and the vehicle in front for the overtaking vehicle to enter the gap.
What if the driver of the MG thingy was working on planning an overtake of the car in front of him, and the one in front of that too. Even though Road craft says that you should leave a sufficient gap for other vehicles to pull into, in reality you need to leave as little dead ground between the target vehicle as possible without pressurising the driver of the target vehicle and without being to close to be unsafe. If the MG driver was in that position, then there would not be enough room available for the faster car (you) to pull into the gap between him (MG) and the target (MG's)
boxster said:
This is certainly something that I do, and even more: when a following vehicle can make better progress than me, for example a motorbike, I pull over briefly to let it past.
How do you know the driver behind is not capable of making progress? Even lower powered cars driven by experienced and practiced drivers can make better progress than cars with hundreds of BHP above their own.
boxster said:
From your post, I understand that this is not accepted practice even among police and I am going to have to revise my expectations of other road users as well.
There are many things in Road Craft that make sense and are good practice but, this is the real world out there and probably 95% of the drivers on the road have never even heard of 'Road Craft' and of those I expect 98% of drivers have not read it either
(or even understood it 
). boxster said:
However, I do think this is a shame because convoys usually form not as a result of a collective decision to arrive together, but because a single driver gets stuck behind a slow moving vehicle, doesn't want to overtake it himself, and doesn't leave enough space to allow the vehicle behind to get in front and have a go at overtaking the obstruction. Obviously, this then propagates back until you have a roadfull of cars going very slowly and some very frustrated drivers at the back.
So they are all looking for the best and most appropraite place to pass (or most of them are). That leaves the whole thing open to individual interpretation which differs greatly from each and every driver depending on their experience, training skill and the power of the car they are driving.
boxster said:
The simpe expedient of leaving enough space for a faster vehicle to leapfrog would end this in one stroke, and at virtually no cost to oneself.
Don't leapfrog, like the dwarf with learning difficulties, ITS NOT BIG AND ITS NOT CLEVER!
if you get any of them wrong then it looks foolish and sloppy.
Learn to plan better and either stay behind until a gap naturally opens and you have the distance to get in safely without inconveniencing anyone, or TAKE THE WHOLE LOT IN ONE GO.
Otherwise stay where you are at the back and chill out or take a different route and overtake somone else not in the queue you were originally in 
madcop said:
Madcop - thanks for your detailed response. My actions were based on the following two points from "Roadcraft", under the heading "Assisting others to overtake"
*be alert to the intentions of drivers behind you: use your mirrors and assess whether they wish to overtake or not
*allow enough distance between you and the vehicle in front for the overtaking vehicle to enter the gap.
What if the driver of the MG thingy was working on planning an overtake of the car in front of him, and the one in front of that too. Even though Road craft says that you should leave a sufficient gap for other vehicles to pull into, in reality you need to leave as little dead ground between the target vehicle as possible without pressurising the driver of the target vehicle and without being to close to be unsafe. If the MG driver was in that position, then there would not be enough room available for the faster car (you) to pull into the gap between him (MG) and the target (MG's)
I sat behind him long enough to form a judgement about his intentions, and he definitely did not use several overtaking opportunities.
madcop said:
This is certainly something that I do, and even more: when a following vehicle can make better progress than me, for example a motorbike, I pull over briefly to let it past.
How do you know the driver behind is not capable of making progress? Even lower powered cars driven by experienced and practiced drivers can make better progress than cars with hundreds of BHP above their own.
The first decision is "am I trying to overtake anyway?" If not, I automatically leave a gap. Then, if I am, the next quesion is the one you have just asked. The best I can do there is to consider any observations I have made about his driving so far and yes, the type of vehicle. My mum in a Ferrari would get more attention than Michael Schumacher on a tractor, but as this amount of consideration is a bit of a bonus anyway, I think that's ok.
madcop said:
From your post, I understand that this is not accepted practice even among police and I am going to have to revise my expectations of other road users as well.
There are many things in Road Craft that make sense and are good practice but, this is the real world out there and probably 95% of the drivers on the road have never even heard of 'Road Craft' and of those I expect 98% of drivers have not read it either
Of course you're right and I fully accept that I was being optimistic, but as my grandparents used to say, "if you don't ask, you don't get". However, in retrospect, given the guy was (I'm assuming) a policeman, and not intending to overtake, I surprised he didn't take the advice offered in Roadcraft.
madcop said:
However, I do think this is a shame because convoys usually form not as a result of a collective decision to arrive together, but because a single driver gets stuck behind a slow moving vehicle, doesn't want to overtake it himself, and doesn't leave enough space to allow the vehicle behind to get in front and have a go at overtaking the obstruction. Obviously, this then propagates back until you have a roadfull of cars going very slowly and some very frustrated drivers at the back.
So they are all looking for the best and most appropraite place to pass (or most of them are). That leaves the whole thing open to individual interpretation which differs greatly from each and every driver depending on their experience, training skill and the power of the car they are driving.
For whatever reason, the majority of people in such a queue will not attempt to overtake, however good the opportunities are. The question I ask myself is, will I honestly use the next possible overtaking opportunity, or am I too busy enjoying the scenery/ looking for a turning etc.
madcop said:
The simpe expedient of leaving enough space for a faster vehicle to leapfrog would end this in one stroke, and at virtually no cost to oneself.
Don't leapfrog, like the dwarf with learning difficulties, ITS NOT BIG AND ITS NOT CLEVER!
if you get any of them wrong then it looks foolish and sloppy.
By "leapfrog" I simply meant overtake one vehicle at a time where safe to do so. By the time the queue is more that three or four vehicles long, it's the only realistic chance there is of getting past.
don't leap frog? why on earth not? I will continue to leapfrog until it is safe to overtake the rest in one go.. OR until I feel it is risky. Even with a very fast car, "doing the lot" can be frought with danger - eg the Volvo driver who decides to try a ludicruously slow overtake when you are making progress past.
Sorry MC, but I have to consider your advice slightly flawed until explained more - not a criticism, maybe you could tell me why LF is so bad in such a way that I can understand better?
cheers!
C
Sorry MC, but I have to consider your advice slightly flawed until explained more - not a criticism, maybe you could tell me why LF is so bad in such a way that I can understand better?
cheers!
C
I have to agree with Madcop on this one.
On the Police Advanced driving course you can only leapfrog when there is space to do so and without causing inconvenience to other road users....otherwise if you cause other drivers to brake or try to make your own space then you will fail....its as simple as that!
On the Police Advanced driving course you can only leapfrog when there is space to do so and without causing inconvenience to other road users....otherwise if you cause other drivers to brake or try to make your own space then you will fail....its as simple as that!
I agree with this as well! But in my orginal post, I said I was trying to show, by means of indicators and road positioning my desire to make better progress than the convoy and hoped that the car ahead would make space if he didn't intend to overtake. (This happens a lot in Cloud Cuckoo Land, where I'm from originally.
) If he had braked, it would have been out of consideration, not out of necessity.
) If he had braked, it would have been out of consideration, not out of necessity. tonyrec said:
leapfrog when there is space to do so and without causing inconvenience to other road users....otherwise if you cause other drivers to brake or try to make your own space then you will fail....its as simple as that!
oh *obviously* !! I wouldn't force a gap to appear, hence the reason I was asking why it was so bad! I only LF the way down a line if there is room to do so. Not that mad.
C
boxster said:
However, in retrospect, given the guy was (I'm assuming) a policeman, and not intending to overtake, I surprised he didn't take the advice offered in Roadcraft.
He could have been a veteran CID officer. Last time he looked at Road Craft was when he did his intial Panda course decades ago.
Road Craft to a CID officer is getting home from the pub wihtout hitting anything and avoiding the stripey ones in the process
Carl.
Leap frogging smacks to me of forcing a way through a line of closely packed traffic. If individual overtakes are sensibly and properly done, then I have no problem with that.
>> Edited by madcop on Monday 14th July 11:27
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