Emergency Vehicles and roadworks
Discussion
Took the Elan out today for a bit of a Sunday drive, coming into Matlock Bath is a set of roadworks. There's a lane closure which goes around a right hand unsighted bend, so single file traffic regulated by lights
Our lights go green, I'm 4th in the queue and I can hear a siren roughly from where I'm headed. The cars infront of me, together with around 6 or 7 cyclists head off to get through the restriction but I wait for them to clear. And wait. I've left enough time and space that the cars infront of me should definately have cleared. Can still hear the siren but cant see anything, doesnt appear to be coming any further towards me, the car behind is gesticulating that I like vinegar on my chips (thanks to Reg for that phrase), so I go.
Typically, the emergency vehicle decides he's coming as well, cue both of us meeting head to head. He's going much quicker than I am, the closed lane is on my offside so I take a route to the right through the cones to give him space to pass on my nearside. I dont think those behind me had the same judgement or luck
Had the opportunity come around again I'd have probably waited some more just incase
Interested to hear what the correct procedure is for this - should I have waited?
Should the emergency vehicle have turned the siren off if they were planning on waiting for those infront of me to clear?
Our lights go green, I'm 4th in the queue and I can hear a siren roughly from where I'm headed. The cars infront of me, together with around 6 or 7 cyclists head off to get through the restriction but I wait for them to clear. And wait. I've left enough time and space that the cars infront of me should definately have cleared. Can still hear the siren but cant see anything, doesnt appear to be coming any further towards me, the car behind is gesticulating that I like vinegar on my chips (thanks to Reg for that phrase), so I go.
Typically, the emergency vehicle decides he's coming as well, cue both of us meeting head to head. He's going much quicker than I am, the closed lane is on my offside so I take a route to the right through the cones to give him space to pass on my nearside. I dont think those behind me had the same judgement or luck
Had the opportunity come around again I'd have probably waited some more just incase
Interested to hear what the correct procedure is for this - should I have waited?
Should the emergency vehicle have turned the siren off if they were planning on waiting for those infront of me to clear?
Had I been driving and given that you've described a total lack of vision both ways, I would have waited for the lights to be in my favour and stayed on my side of the stop line.
I'd have kept the lights on but killed the noise, simply to try and stop other drivers from being spooked and thus forcing them to do something stupid.
On my borough, we have some very large junctions (Henlys Corner A406 if anyone knows it) and the unofficial policy is that we kill everything at those junctions and wait for the lights to be in our favour. Otherwise, crossing 6 lanes of fast moving traffic can be very sticky (at best).
Of course, the circumstances of the call could have weighed on the drivers mind (red mist anyone?) but we all make mistakes and bad calls every so often and unfortunately, our mistakes tend to have glaring consquences.
I'd have kept the lights on but killed the noise, simply to try and stop other drivers from being spooked and thus forcing them to do something stupid.
On my borough, we have some very large junctions (Henlys Corner A406 if anyone knows it) and the unofficial policy is that we kill everything at those junctions and wait for the lights to be in our favour. Otherwise, crossing 6 lanes of fast moving traffic can be very sticky (at best).
Of course, the circumstances of the call could have weighed on the drivers mind (red mist anyone?) but we all make mistakes and bad calls every so often and unfortunately, our mistakes tend to have glaring consquences.
barbalar said:
Had I been driving and given that you've described a total lack of vision both ways, I would have waited for the lights to be in my favour and stayed on my side of the stop line.
I'd have kept the lights on but killed the noise, simply to try and stop other drivers from being spooked and thus forcing them to do something stupid.
On my borough, we have some very large junctions (Henlys Corner A406 if anyone knows it) and the unofficial policy is that we kill everything at those junctions and wait for the lights to be in our favour. Otherwise, crossing 6 lanes of fast moving traffic can be very sticky (at best).
Of course, the circumstances of the call could have weighed on the drivers mind (red mist anyone?) but we all make mistakes and bad calls every so often and unfortunately, our mistakes tend to have glaring consquences.
Barbalar, how long have you been a paramedic? Was it hard to become one? Do you enjoy it? I'd have kept the lights on but killed the noise, simply to try and stop other drivers from being spooked and thus forcing them to do something stupid.
On my borough, we have some very large junctions (Henlys Corner A406 if anyone knows it) and the unofficial policy is that we kill everything at those junctions and wait for the lights to be in our favour. Otherwise, crossing 6 lanes of fast moving traffic can be very sticky (at best).
Of course, the circumstances of the call could have weighed on the drivers mind (red mist anyone?) but we all make mistakes and bad calls every so often and unfortunately, our mistakes tend to have glaring consquences.
Thanks Barbalar. An afterthought I had - maybe it'd have been better to go with the flow and let the emergency vehicle barge through if they wanted to.
The gap might have given the false sense of security that it eventually did, in so much as the emergency vehicle probably thought that our lights were now on red, when infact they werent
The gap might have given the false sense of security that it eventually did, in so much as the emergency vehicle probably thought that our lights were now on red, when infact they werent
Good point, but the whole ethos of our training (as I'm sure Von would point out) is that we drive on our own terms without forcing the public to do too much.
At the end of the day, had it been me, I would have waited for my light to show green because we all get the idiot who takes the 'late' amber/red and that way, I get to meet them on my terms, having at least factored that into my driving plan.
When all is said and done, the best thing to do is pull in where safe to do so and allow the emergency services driver to make their own mind up and take the course appropriate to them.
Mind you, the fact you'd noticed the siren at all puts you head and shoulders above the great majority of drivers out there
At the end of the day, had it been me, I would have waited for my light to show green because we all get the idiot who takes the 'late' amber/red and that way, I get to meet them on my terms, having at least factored that into my driving plan.
When all is said and done, the best thing to do is pull in where safe to do so and allow the emergency services driver to make their own mind up and take the course appropriate to them.
Mind you, the fact you'd noticed the siren at all puts you head and shoulders above the great majority of drivers out there
MiniMac said:
Fair enough, I've no idea where I got the idea you where a paramedic from :laugh; Getting confused with medic-one.
Do i hear my name... 
If i couldn't see if there were any cars coming from the other end or not i would probably turn the noise off, or give it a quick loop and then just wait for the remaining cars to pass.
There is 1 similar situation here but the workmen are actually working on/in the lane the closed so when they hear us coming they have one on each end and one of them will just stop the traffic from the opposite direction giving us a free lane.
Medic-one said:
MiniMac said:
Fair enough, I've no idea where I got the idea you where a paramedic from :laugh; Getting confused with medic-one.
Do i hear my name... If i couldn't see if there were any cars coming from the other end or not i would probably turn the noise off, or give it a quick loop and then just wait for the remaining cars to pass.
There is 1 similar situation here but the workmen are actually working on/in the lane the closed so when they hear us coming they have one on each end and one of them will just stop the traffic from the opposite direction giving us a free lane.
Same above questions to you then
barbalar said:
Good point, but the whole ethos of our training (as I'm sure Von would point out) is that we drive on our own terms without forcing the public to do too much.
I think like anything in life it depends on the individual, I dont realistically think we can expect all the BiB to be careful and considerate all the time. Everyone has their off days. I've seen the highs and lows, lows being generally anything a PCSO does, but also I've been tailgated pushed and brake tested by a BiB in a silly panda car which annoyed me but I let it pass I think he was having a bad day (and I wouldnt jusdge the BiB based on a single isolated incident). On the plus side every plod on the beat in our local town is fantastic, much respect to them for dealing with the teenagers in a sympathtic but firm manner. Same goes for Motorway bib. Having to deal with nasty accidents including fatalaties and spending time on the hard shoulder (dangerous place) yet retaining a good sense of humour and discretion most of the time, I dont think I could do it.barbalar said:
Of course, the circumstances of the call could have weighed on the drivers mind
This is I think the bigger question. Not to take anything away from the BiB but an ambulance travelling on blues will be on it's way to a suspected life-threatening incident whereas the BiB more often than not won't be.Also there is the added pressure of the governement targets for ambulance services, as far as I am aware the BiB do not have such targets.
crikey said:
barbalar said:
Of course, the circumstances of the call could have weighed on the drivers mind
This is I think the bigger question. Not to take anything away from the BiB but an ambulance travelling on blues will be on it's way to a suspected life-threatening incident whereas the BiB more often than not won't be.Also there is the added pressure of the governement targets for ambulance services, as far as I am aware the BiB do not have such targets.
As for life threatening incidents we attend alot of calls from ambulance to break down doors etc as they cant gain entry, or because warning markers are on the address and they will not attend even for at deaths door untill police arrive.
Also bear in mind the differing jobs we signed up for and the impact on the victim / patient. We also respond to Burglaries and rapes and other serious offences where our timely arrival can make a big difference to the quality of someones life as does a quick response to medical emergencies.
Also when comparing emergency services (of which the police seem to always be the bottom of the pile) we dont attend every call on immediate whereas fire it seems will attend every call on blues even if its not a fire.
All 3 services attend jobs that directly or indirectly affect peoples lives, all 3 save lives, and all 3 can make a difference to the quality of peoples lives.
To say police dont make a difference or save lives is plain stupid and you dont know what the type of call the responder is going to to make the judgement when deciding weather to give way or move out of the way.
^Slider^ said:
crikey said:
barbalar said:
Of course, the circumstances of the call could have weighed on the drivers mind
This is I think the bigger question. Not to take anything away from the BiB but an ambulance travelling on blues will be on it's way to a suspected life-threatening incident whereas the BiB more often than not won't be.Also there is the added pressure of the governement targets for ambulance services, as far as I am aware the BiB do not have such targets.
As for life threatening incidents we attend alot of calls from ambulance to break down doors etc as they cant gain entry, or because warning markers are on the address and they will not attend even for at deaths door untill police arrive.
Also bear in mind the differing jobs we signed up for and the impact on the victim / patient. We also respond to Burglaries and rapes and other serious offences where our timely arrival can make a big difference to the quality of someones life as does a quick response to medical emergencies.
Also when comparing emergency services (of which the police seem to always be the bottom of the pile) we dont attend every call on immediate whereas fire it seems will attend every call on blues even if its not a fire.
All 3 services attend jobs that directly or indirectly affect peoples lives, all 3 save lives, and all 3 can make a difference to the quality of peoples lives.
To say police dont make a difference or save lives is plain stupid and you dont know what the type of call the responder is going to to make the judgement when deciding weather to give way or move out of the way.
The fire service are another kettle of fish, the vans carrying their bacon butties run on blues
crikey said:
^Slider^ said:
crikey said:
barbalar said:
Of course, the circumstances of the call could have weighed on the drivers mind
This is I think the bigger question. Not to take anything away from the BiB but an ambulance travelling on blues will be on it's way to a suspected life-threatening incident whereas the BiB more often than not won't be.Also there is the added pressure of the governement targets for ambulance services, as far as I am aware the BiB do not have such targets.
As for life threatening incidents we attend alot of calls from ambulance to break down doors etc as they cant gain entry, or because warning markers are on the address and they will not attend even for at deaths door untill police arrive.
Also bear in mind the differing jobs we signed up for and the impact on the victim / patient. We also respond to Burglaries and rapes and other serious offences where our timely arrival can make a big difference to the quality of someones life as does a quick response to medical emergencies.
Also when comparing emergency services (of which the police seem to always be the bottom of the pile) we dont attend every call on immediate whereas fire it seems will attend every call on blues even if its not a fire.
All 3 services attend jobs that directly or indirectly affect peoples lives, all 3 save lives, and all 3 can make a difference to the quality of peoples lives.
To say police dont make a difference or save lives is plain stupid and you dont know what the type of call the responder is going to to make the judgement when deciding weather to give way or move out of the way.
The fire service are another kettle of fish, the vans carrying their bacon butties run on blues
While it's unwise to knock any of the services for travelling on red - if they are doing so it is because they are required to do so- it's fair to say we all have our fair share of crap and genuinely time-critical jobs.
andy_quantum said:
So, Gentlemen (and/or Ladies if the fairer sex have replied) coming back to the point in hand.
As a MOP driving, stay or go in that scenario?
I don't think there's a difinitive answer in this scenario. As a MOP driving, stay or go in that scenario?
Personally I'd stay until I was sure the route ahead was clear, either by the sound of the siren receding or the emergency services vehicle comning through. I'd much rather take a bit of grief from people behind me and be safe in the knowledge that I haven't impeded an emergency vehicle than take the risk of slowing or blocking it's progress.
andy_quantum said:
So, Gentlemen (and/or Ladies if the fairer sex have replied) coming back to the point in hand.
As a MOP driving, stay or go in that scenario?
I'd take the view that unless I've got sufficient vision and/or an escape option (ie room/space in the coned-off area to manoeuvre if I do meet an oncoming) in order that proceeding would be a safe option then I'd stay put- with blues on but no noise - until the lights changed in my favour. It must always be remembered that the EV claiming exemptions has to treat the red-lights as a Give-Way not a god-given right to proceed against any oncoming traffic.As a MOP driving, stay or go in that scenario?
I do though believe that the OP initially did the right thing in his actions but, as has already been pointed out, unfortunately the average motorist doesn't seem to possess such foresight or due consideration and we have to drive to expect as such.
Edited by maddog993 on Monday 7th January 16:47
I replied to this subject on another heading but the definitive answer is; the emergency vehicle does not have exemption for temporary traffic lights and must wait if on red, common sense comes into play if the other end of the road works are visible and its obvious that everyone is waiting to let you through,
Gary
Gary
jaf01uk said:
I replied to this subject on another heading but the definitive answer is; the emergency vehicle does not have exemption for temporary traffic lights and must wait if on red
Do you have to piece of law which actually lists this ?I just had a look through my Emergency driving books and it sais we can treat traffic lights as give way signs whilst on a red, but it doesn't mention anything about temporary traffic lights, so we treat them just as normal traffic lights (as long as we can see there is no other traffic coming offcourse).
jaf01uk said:
I replied to this subject on another heading but the definitive answer is; the emergency vehicle does not have exemption for temporary traffic lights and must wait if on red, common sense comes into play if the other end of the road works are visible and its obvious that everyone is waiting to let you through,
Gary
That's not right.Gary
Temporary lights come under Reg 35 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, the emergency services are exempt from lights described under Reg 35 by virtue of 36(1)(b).
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