CPS unfit for purpose, flawed extradition treaty exposed
Discussion
"If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear"
If the PH search facility is right, there needs to be something on here about the breathtaking level of CPS incompetence involving abuse of process, and the flaws of the 2003 UK-USA extradition treaty, that have led Mr Raissi to the brink of personal and professional ruin.
The story relates to a qualified pilot who was alleged to have taught one or more of the 9/11 terrorists to fly. The man, Lotfi Raissi, an Algerian muslim, was arrested at his home and held in Belmarsh Prison for over 4 months. The USA attempted to get him extradited for alleged involvement in the plot, but back then had to supply evidence to a British Court, and that evidence has been found to be vacuous rubbish. The CPS frequently cannot deal effectively even with speeding offences and now clearly they cannot deal with much more serious of offences either, where one might expect a punctilious attention to detail.
Raissi was, apparently, arrested and detained, for as long as he was, on unrelated trivia in order to allow the USA to get its act together. As it happens the USA's act was a comedy-farce. The police-CPS approach was described in Court as an abuse of process. The chain of command appears to be USA tells the UK what to do, UK Home Office tells police to arrest, CPS capitulates, and inocent people have their life ripped apart. The Home Office-police-CPS are clearly unfit for purpose, together representing a significant part of the rot setting in to the British 'justice' system under the governance of fools who appear to have no grasp of the principles of natural justice.
The out-of-her-depth-in-a-car-park-puddle Home Secretary has been unavailable all night for comment revealing cowardice as well as incompetence.
Given the absence of credible evidence, and the nature of what 'evidence' was adduced being so shoddy that e.g. a photo said to ID Raissi in fact showed another person, there can no longer be any confidence in the police-CPS system to manage anything more than rearranging paperclips - under the protection of Health and Safety experts naturally - and the notion of USA (or EU) warrants that can take a UK citizen directly to another country's jails so easily needs to be re-visited urgently. Today, with the USA-UK extradition treaty of 2003 in place, Raissi would have had a very different fate as there is no longer any need to present prima facie evidence to a Court to secure extradition.
What can ordinary people do in the face of such monumental ineptitude and corrupt collusion?
http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5jGOCbf7x7X...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7245677.stm
If the PH search facility is right, there needs to be something on here about the breathtaking level of CPS incompetence involving abuse of process, and the flaws of the 2003 UK-USA extradition treaty, that have led Mr Raissi to the brink of personal and professional ruin.
The story relates to a qualified pilot who was alleged to have taught one or more of the 9/11 terrorists to fly. The man, Lotfi Raissi, an Algerian muslim, was arrested at his home and held in Belmarsh Prison for over 4 months. The USA attempted to get him extradited for alleged involvement in the plot, but back then had to supply evidence to a British Court, and that evidence has been found to be vacuous rubbish. The CPS frequently cannot deal effectively even with speeding offences and now clearly they cannot deal with much more serious of offences either, where one might expect a punctilious attention to detail.
Raissi was, apparently, arrested and detained, for as long as he was, on unrelated trivia in order to allow the USA to get its act together. As it happens the USA's act was a comedy-farce. The police-CPS approach was described in Court as an abuse of process. The chain of command appears to be USA tells the UK what to do, UK Home Office tells police to arrest, CPS capitulates, and inocent people have their life ripped apart. The Home Office-police-CPS are clearly unfit for purpose, together representing a significant part of the rot setting in to the British 'justice' system under the governance of fools who appear to have no grasp of the principles of natural justice.
The out-of-her-depth-in-a-car-park-puddle Home Secretary has been unavailable all night for comment revealing cowardice as well as incompetence.
Given the absence of credible evidence, and the nature of what 'evidence' was adduced being so shoddy that e.g. a photo said to ID Raissi in fact showed another person, there can no longer be any confidence in the police-CPS system to manage anything more than rearranging paperclips - under the protection of Health and Safety experts naturally - and the notion of USA (or EU) warrants that can take a UK citizen directly to another country's jails so easily needs to be re-visited urgently. Today, with the USA-UK extradition treaty of 2003 in place, Raissi would have had a very different fate as there is no longer any need to present prima facie evidence to a Court to secure extradition.
What can ordinary people do in the face of such monumental ineptitude and corrupt collusion?
http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5jGOCbf7x7X...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7245677.stm
FishFace said:
New legislation obtains a new authority from the supreme courts. Not that shock and awe really.
But yes, the CPS aren't the greatest organisation going! Albeit they have some stunning minds working for them at the top of the game.
Stunning as in But yes, the CPS aren't the greatest organisation going! Albeit they have some stunning minds working for them at the top of the game.
or stunning as in stunned by their own inadequacy?"Not that shock and awe really" - actually yes and more besides, I don't see any room for such complacency or (possibly my misinterpretation) arrogance after the series of Court hearings has exposed gross and grotesque failings. Presumably this level of case is looked at by these 'stunning' minds at least as a once-over? Maybe they should be in a lower set where they can take more time.
Your point is a good one. One seemingly incorrect decision means everyone involved is poor.
New legislation will always be pushed as far and as hard as it can go. This is why we have the supreme courts to rule on where those boundaries lie. This decision is such an authority and will be a binding decision.
New legislation will always be pushed as far and as hard as it can go. This is why we have the supreme courts to rule on where those boundaries lie. This decision is such an authority and will be a binding decision.
The CPS is as bent/incompetent (choose whichever) from top to bottom.
Not just high profile cases like this, but right down to well publicised motoring related cases too.
It seems, all too often, they are either poorly informed in law or procedures, or act on the basis the Courts will side with them.
Not just high profile cases like this, but right down to well publicised motoring related cases too.
It seems, all too often, they are either poorly informed in law or procedures, or act on the basis the Courts will side with them.
Edited by peterguk on Thursday 14th February 21:03
It's right to indicate the appropriate powers wielded by higher courts, and in this case the guy had his day in such a court, but let's not forget that in future the next Mr Raissi will not because they will be shipped off to Baltimore or Brussels with no equivalent evidential burden weighed by a domestic Court.
All that is required is that the warrant is completed correctly and reveals the person named as a suspect in relation to enquiries over a 'crime' potentially attracting more than 1 year in prison as punishment. No actual evidence for that suspicion is needed - go straight to jail as an obedient submissive pawn in the iron fist of any old dimwit state.
As for these comments:
Home Office spokesperson said there were no plans either to review the 2003 Extradition Act or to renegotiate the treaty with the US. He said: "All requests for extradition made to the UK are considered under the provisions of the Extradition Act 2003, which provides full and effective safeguards for the rights of requested persons. The US is a trusted extradition partner with a mature legal system and it guarantees appropriate safeguards within its domestic courts."
Reasoning by assertion and patently absurd.
All that is required is that the warrant is completed correctly and reveals the person named as a suspect in relation to enquiries over a 'crime' potentially attracting more than 1 year in prison as punishment. No actual evidence for that suspicion is needed - go straight to jail as an obedient submissive pawn in the iron fist of any old dimwit state.
As for these comments:
Home Office spokesperson said there were no plans either to review the 2003 Extradition Act or to renegotiate the treaty with the US. He said: "All requests for extradition made to the UK are considered under the provisions of the Extradition Act 2003, which provides full and effective safeguards for the rights of requested persons. The US is a trusted extradition partner with a mature legal system and it guarantees appropriate safeguards within its domestic courts."
Reasoning by assertion and patently absurd.
odyssey2200 said:
Turbobloke
forgive my saying so, but you seem particularly agrieved over this.
Don't get be wrong I believe that CPS could'nt find their own arse with both hands but you seem pissed off!
I like your turn of phrase - the thought of the CPS in two-handed own-butt-cheek searches and coming up blank is priceless - and would have to agree that the lack of future protection against the sheer incompetence now rife in governance and the criminal justice system lead me to feel a certain degree of annoyance.forgive my saying so, but you seem particularly agrieved over this.
Don't get be wrong I believe that CPS could'nt find their own arse with both hands but you seem pissed off!
How can such ludicrously inadequate people and the p1sspoor processes they devise contain life changing powers over anyone? It's an affront to us all.
Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
Here we go:
http://www.statewatch.org/news/2003/jul/25ukus.htm
On 31 March (2003) David Blunkett, UK Home Secretary, signed an Extradition Treaty on behalf of the UK with his United States counterpart, Attorney General Tom Ashcroft, ostensibly bringing the US into line with procedures between European countries. The UK parliament was not consulted at all and the text was not public available until the end of May. The only justification given for the delay was "administrative reasons", though these did not hold-up scrutiny by the US senate, which began almost immediately.
The UK-US Treaty has three main effects:
- (1) it removes the requirement on the US to provide prima facie evidence when requesting the extradition of people from the UK but maintains the requirement on the UK to satisfy the "probable cause" requirement in the US when seeking the extradition of US nationals;
- (2) it removes or restricts key protections currently open to suspects and defendants;
- (3) it implements the EU-US Treaty on extradition, signed in Washington on 25 June 2003, but far exceeds the provisions in this agreement.
turbobloke said:
All that is required is that the warrant is completed correctly and reveals the person named as a suspect in relation to enquiries over a 'crime' potentially attracting more than 1 year in prison as punishment.
No actual evidence for that suspicion is needed - go straight to jail as an obedient submissive pawn in the iron fist of any old dimwit state.
As for these comments:
Home Office spokesperson said there were no plans either to review the 2003 Extradition Act or to renegotiate the treaty with the US. He said: "All requests for extradition made to the UK are considered under the provisions of the Extradition Act 2003, which provides full and effective safeguards for the rights of requested persons. The US is a trusted extradition partner with a mature legal system and it guarantees appropriate safeguards within its domestic courts."
Really???No actual evidence for that suspicion is needed - go straight to jail as an obedient submissive pawn in the iron fist of any old dimwit state.
As for these comments:
Home Office spokesperson said there were no plans either to review the 2003 Extradition Act or to renegotiate the treaty with the US. He said: "All requests for extradition made to the UK are considered under the provisions of the Extradition Act 2003, which provides full and effective safeguards for the rights of requested persons. The US is a trusted extradition partner with a mature legal system and it guarantees appropriate safeguards within its domestic courts."
"Excuse me UK, USA here. We think your Mr Smith might have been a naughty boy. We don't havew any evidence, but can we have him?"
"Hello USA. We have to be very careful here, as we tell every one we protect the interests of our citizens. Hmmmm, no evidence eh? Yeah, course you can. Come and get him."
TB
I am so pissed off!
every time I read a paper, listen to the radio, watch the TV I see Incompetence and corruption everywhere.
Fron national Gov't to out local council, it is rife!
Only today I read about our local council who painted our high street lines and bus stop a week before a long planned gas main was to be relayed and the whole road dug up.
Now I hear that our council can pass planning permission with out consultation with local residents effected by the building.
Our whole system of government takes new steps towards
ing us every day!
And still there are people who post on her who refuse to see it.
What is it going to take?
When will the masses declare that enough is enough?
I am so pissed off!
every time I read a paper, listen to the radio, watch the TV I see Incompetence and corruption everywhere.
Fron national Gov't to out local council, it is rife!
Only today I read about our local council who painted our high street lines and bus stop a week before a long planned gas main was to be relayed and the whole road dug up.
Now I hear that our council can pass planning permission with out consultation with local residents effected by the building.
Our whole system of government takes new steps towards
ing us every day!And still there are people who post on her who refuse to see it.
What is it going to take?
When will the masses declare that enough is enough?
Already the Treaty has been seriously abused. It was intended for the mutual extradition of terrorist suspects, but instead has mainly been used to extradite British businessmen to stand trial in the USA for acts (possibly) done in the UK that are not offences under UK law, or that have been found by UK courts to be untriable, or where the defendents have been found not guilty in a UK court.
Another 'abuse' is that it only works one way. The UK still has to adduce evidence in a US court to have a suspect extradited to the UK.
Streaky
Another 'abuse' is that it only works one way. The UK still has to adduce evidence in a US court to have a suspect extradited to the UK.
Streaky
peterguk said:
"Excuse me UK, USA here. We think your Mr Smith might have been a naughty boy. We don't havew any evidence, but can we have him?"
"Hello USA. We have to be very careful here, as we tell every one we protect the interests of our citizens. Hmmmm, no evidence eh? Yeah, course you can. Come and get him."
"Hello USA. We have to be very careful here, as we tell every one we protect the interests of our citizens. Hmmmm, no evidence eh? Yeah, course you can. Come and get him."
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
streaky said:
Already the Treaty has been seriously abused. It was intended for the mutual extradition of terrorist suspects, but instead has mainly been used to extradite British businessmen to stand trial in the USA for acts (possibly) done in the UK that are not offences under UK law, or that have been found by UK courts to be untriable, or where the defendents have been found not guilty in a UK court.
Yes that's right. Blood and bladder at thermal crisis point now.
odyssey2200 said:
This deal seems a bit one sided to me.
Hugh Grant in Love Actually guise for PM then...odyssey2200 said:
How many Irish/IRA suspects were detained and deported from that USA to the UK when we were being bombed?
This deal seems a bit one sided to me.
What do you expect when our previous PM was an agent of a foreign power?This deal seems a bit one sided to me.
We shouldn't be extraditing anyone at all to the USA while they have Guantanimo and the death penalty, we should by trying the traitor and war criminal Blair who signed this obsenity.
fluffnik said:
odyssey2200 said:
How many Irish/IRA suspects were detained and deported from that USA to the UK when we were being bombed?
This deal seems a bit one sided to me.
What do you expect when our previous PM was an agent of a foreign power?This deal seems a bit one sided to me.
We shouldn't be extraditing anyone at all to the USA while they have Guantanimo and the death penalty, we should by trying the traitor and war criminal Blair who signed this obsenity.
We signed up a voluntary article of the human rights act which abolishes the death penalty in all circumstances. How can we send people to countries that still have it, given we don't deport convicted criminals as they may be persecuted in their own country?
FishFace said:
fluffnik said:
odyssey2200 said:
How many Irish/IRA suspects were detained and deported from that USA to the UK when we were being bombed?
This deal seems a bit one sided to me.
What do you expect when our previous PM was an agent of a foreign power?This deal seems a bit one sided to me.
We shouldn't be extraditing anyone at all to the USA while they have Guantanimo and the death penalty, we should by trying the traitor and war criminal Blair who signed this obsenity.
We signed up a voluntary article of the human rights act which abolishes the death penalty in all circumstances. How can we send people to countries that still have it, given we don't deport convicted criminals as they may be persecuted in their own country?
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