NIP for 47 in 30. Wrong but is it worth fighting....?

[flyinyam]

Recently informed picked a speeding ticket up.

Bummer! Thought fair enough as i saw scamera straight away checked speedo, showed 34 ish. Didn't even bother to brake as didn't think i was enough over limit to convict.

Anyhow nip comes through showing 47 mph registered.

Now i know this to definately be wrong, but is it worth fighting??

If they'd said 37mph i'd be gutted, but hold my hands up.

My question is, is there any point arguing speed recorded?

Is punishment the same for each speed (47 as opposed to 37).?
Do i just hold my hands up and open my wallet??

[SS2.]

flyinyam said:

Thought fair enough as i saw scamera straight away checked speedo, showed 34 ish.

Didn't even bother to brake as didn't think i was enough over limit to convict.

An indicated 34mph could be a true vehicle speed of anywhere from 34mph down into the 20s. Whilst anything over 30mph is an offence, you are unlikely to receive a NIP for alleged speeds below 35mph.

flyinyam said:

Anyhow nip comes through showing 47 mph registered.

The most likely reasons being either you were targetted long before you spotted the scammer, or the reading taken was entirely unreliable. Sadly, proving the latter can be a very long and drawn out process.

For an early look see at the 'evidence', you could write to the SCP and request copies of any photographs which may assist with identification of the driver. No point in embellishment within the letter - keep it succinct..

flyinym said:

Is punishment the same for each speed (47 as opposed to 37).?

Both alleged speeds would qualify for a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty - £60 & 3 points.

If these allegations were challenged in court, then the sentencing guidelines suggest 3 points upon conviction for 37mph in a 30mph limit and 4-5 points OR a short period disqualification for 47mph in the same 30mph limit.

[Puddenchucker]

flyinyam said:

Is punishment the same for each speed (47 as opposed to 37).?

For 37 you may have been offered a Speed Awareness Course (typically £80-£110) instead of points/fine(£60), whereas you almost certainly won't for 47.

[Peter Ward]

The CPS regularly trawl this forum. You have admitted that your speedo read at 34mph, and given that speedos must be accurate to -0%, +10%, you were doing at least 31mph. You cannot therefore prove you were travelling below the limit. Unfortunately, any speed above 30mph is breaking the law.

The fact that the camera gave a wrong reading is now irrelevant, as the offence is merely exceeding the limit, not driving at a particular speed. IMHO it's not possible to challenge this successfully unless you can get proof of the camera being past its calibration date, or the operator not having training, or some other similar "technicality".

[blueyes]

Get the photos from the SCP!

Tell them you're "pretty sure your car wasn't in the area", don't ask them for the photos because you "want to identify the driver"

Blank out the number plates and post the photos on here and I'll have a look.

No guarantee but I've managed to kill 5 speeding tickets (different people BTW) by just looking at the photos and finding errors.

[JustinP1]

Peter Ward said:

The CPS regularly trawl this forum. You have admitted that your speedo read at 34mph, and given that speedos must be accurate to -0%, +10%, you were doing at least 31mph. You cannot therefore prove you were travelling below the limit. Unfortunately, any speed above 30mph is breaking the law.

The fact that the camera gave a wrong reading is now irrelevant, as the offence is merely exceeding the limit, not driving at a particular speed. IMHO it's not possible to challenge this successfully unless you can get proof of the camera being past its calibration date, or the operator not having training, or some other similar "technicality".

I agree.

I suggest that the OP might edit his first post!

[Jasandjules]

His speedo might not be correctly calibrated.... Something to check on, perhaps..

[tigger1]

Jasandjules said:

His speedo might not be correctly calibrated.... Something to check on, perhaps..

Indeed - a change in tyre size perhaps made it less accurate, and whilst that is a little naughty, it could have been rectified by now for all we know

Get the photo - but be careful what you post on here.

[marlinmunro]

JustinP1 said:

Peter Ward said:

The CPS regularly trawl this forum. You have admitted that your speedo read at 34mph, and given that speedos must be accurate to -0%, +10%, you were doing at least 31mph. You cannot therefore prove you were travelling below the limit. Unfortunately, any speed above 30mph is breaking the law.

The fact that the camera gave a wrong reading is now irrelevant, as the offence is merely exceeding the limit, not driving at a particular speed. IMHO it's not possible to challenge this successfully unless you can get proof of the camera being past its calibration date, or the operator not having training, or some other similar "technicality".

I agree.

I suggest that the OP might edit his first post!

Well thats it, over 30 you should be banned and a huge fine that will cripple you financial for the next ten years. What has happened to this country. It wont be long before we set of on a journey, we will have to send the fine in case we speed.

[SS2.]

Peter Ward said:

The CPS regularly trawl this forum. You have admitted that your speedo read at 34mph, and given that speedos must be accurate to -0%, +10%, you were doing at least 31mph.

The regs actually state that for true vehicle speeds of between 25mph & 70mph, the indicated speed must be less than 110% of the true vehicle speed, plus 6.25mph..

So, at the worst end of the permitted tolerance range, it would be possible for a speedometer to be displaying 34mph when the true vehicle speed was actually closer to 25mph.

[Globulator]

Peter Ward said:

The CPS regularly trawl this forum. You have admitted that your speedo read at 34mph, and given that speedos must be accurate to -0%, +10%, you were doing at least 31mph. You cannot therefore prove you were travelling below the limit. Unfortunately, any speed above 30mph is breaking the law.

Using GPS on 3 cars I've come up with 30mph GPS when the speedo needle is firmly pointing at 35mph. On 3 cars!
To prove 34mph indicated is within 30mph true/gps speed I think a short drive with a video camera and a roadangel should be able to establish that.

I think however the issue is that of how many points.


OP: What canera type was it??
If a Gatso - you can check against the photo and lines.

[supermono]

I think that according to the rules of UK Justice(tm) you are guilty unless you can prove to the satisfaction of the court that your vehicle isn't actually capable of achieving the alleged speed.

In cases of 100mph milkfloats etc, slip error can happen. In cases of a 47mph car slip error never happens so you are guilty...

SM

[liner33]

SS2. said:

Peter Ward said:

The CPS regularly trawl this forum. You have admitted that your speedo read at 34mph, and given that speedos must be accurate to -0%, +10%, you were doing at least 31mph.

The regs actually state that for true vehicle speeds of between 25mph & 70mph, the indicated speed must be less than 110% of the true vehicle speed, plus 6.25mph..

So, at the worst end of the permitted tolerance range, it would be possible for a speedometer to be displaying 34mph when the true vehicle speed was actually closer to 25mph.

What regs ???

I understood there are no regulations covering the calibration of speedometers* following type approval , so that means that most vehicles have never had their speedomters checked after they were fitted at the factory. There is no requirement to calibrate them and once fitted to the car and as soon as the car trundles off the production line the speedo may be wildly inaccurate compounded by age and the changing of parts beyond factory specifications.

Thats why the "my speedometer doesnt work properly" defence is worthless.

The Type approval regs are often stated but many vehicles on the roads have never been subject to type approval, it isnt a requirement to use the vehicle on the road but an agreement for the production and importation of vehicles.

However i would expect most people to tell the difference between 34mph and 47mph without a speedomter

• excepting tachograph regs

[SS2.]

liner33 said:

What regs ???

Section 19 of Schedule 3, Motor Vehicles (Approvals) Regulations 2001

liner33 said:

There is no requirement to calibrate them and once fitted to the car and as soon as the car trundles off the production line the speedo may be wildly inaccurate compounded by age and the changing of parts beyond factory specifications.

No one said that there was such a requirement to calibrate speedometers.

The OP claimed that he was 'doing 34mph'. A poster indicated that speedometers must have a accuracy of 0% to +10% and, as such, the OP's speed must have been in excess of 30mph. I merely pointed out that the accuracy of the speedometer (when type approved), can be greater than 10% and still be within the permissible range..

liner33 said:

Thats why the "my speedometer doesnt work properly" defence is worthless.

I wasn't aware that anyone had claimed any different..

[Mg6b]

The OP stated that when he saw the camera van he checked his speed and was doing '34ISH mph' . I wonder if he was actually doing 47 when the camera van operator first saw the OP and locked the video on to him many seconds before the OP realised there was a problem to address!

Edited by Mg6b on Wednesday 27th February 11:07

[SS2.]

Mg6b said:

The OP stated that when he saw the camera van he checked his speed and was doing '34ISH mph' . I wonder if he was actually doing 47 when the camera van operator first saw the OP and locked the video on to him many seconds before the OP realised there was a problem to address!

Quite - especially since handhelds have an effective range of up to 1000m. The photos (if the OP requests them) should help to determine exactly where he was alleged to have been speeding..

[SplatSpeed]

blueyes said:

Get the photos from the SCP!

Tell them you're "pretty sure your car wasn't in the area", don't ask them for the photos because you "want to identify the driver"

Blank out the number plates and post the photos on here and I'll have a look.

No guarantee but I've managed to kill 5 speeding tickets (different people BTW) by just looking at the photos and finding errors.

will you marry me

[blueyes]

SplatSpeed said:

blueyes said:

Get the photos from the SCP!

Tell them you're "pretty sure your car wasn't in the area", don't ask them for the photos because you "want to identify the driver"

Blank out the number plates and post the photos on here and I'll have a look.

No guarantee but I've managed to kill 5 speeding tickets (different people BTW) by just looking at the photos and finding errors.

will you marry me

Bloody gayers!!!

[flyinyam]

Thanks everybody,

Used my satnav and that indicates 30 mph while speedo shows 35 mph! Don't know if this helps.

will be requesting photos,

I don't think scamera operator could have got me any sooner as it was rounding a right hand bend, and spotted him immediately in front of me.

As i said if they'd told me i was clocked at 37ish i would'nt have questioned it, i'd have just assumed carelessness on my part, but 47 mph is taking the p*ss.Even i, and i'm no bib, could tell the difference between those speeds!!

Cheers Fy

[5lab]

for what its worth - a mates 206 diesel records 20mph on the speedo when doing 30mph on the gps - i noticed this as it always felt like it was going quicker than it really was, and the needle hangs dead down (rather than at an angle) when stationary. doesn't get checked in mots, garage refused to change it under warantee (i didnt get involved)

anyway, point is that even though speedos *shouldn't* under-read, it doesn't mean they *wont* and they never get tested.