Straying into bus lane to allow flashing blue lights by
Discussion
As the title suggests really. Getting out of the way of unmarked Passat estate this morning (who are those mystery men, anyway?) I went into an operational bus lane.
What does the law say? And more importantly, what are the chances of me appealing when the inevitable ticket turns up from the good people at TfL?
What does the law say? And more importantly, what are the chances of me appealing when the inevitable ticket turns up from the good people at TfL?
If you do get a ticket I would challenge it as there are IMO mitigating circumstances.You are allowed to move into bus lanes or any other prohibited area at the order of a policeman. Surely a siren and flashing lights behind you constitutes and order to move out of the way, not a request. You shouldn't get a fine, but if you did then fight it.
I fought a couple of buslane fines in London and was told the camera operator has to use discression, eg, if you are turning then you are allowed to use the lane for a few yards - would use that with extreme caution -
LJ
I fought a couple of buslane fines in London and was told the camera operator has to use discression, eg, if you are turning then you are allowed to use the lane for a few yards - would use that with extreme caution -
LJ
If it is a police car and the officer directs you to the bus lane then it is possible that you have a defence in law. However, a police officer's powers are limited by law and one can order you to stop and can stop you driving along a certain road but cannot oblige you to follow a certain route. It can be a police officer in uniform or plain clothes as long as it is 'a police officer for the time being engaged in the regulation of traffic'.
A car driving through red lights after being signaled to do so by an officer is an interesting scenario. Whilst the obligation placed on a car driver to drive safely is still there, it's an interesting point as to whether it would be merely to drive through lights. After all, I regularly used to direct traffic around RTAs against red ATS and would have assumed that a live function officer who can take over the roll of director of traffic would override that of an automated system.
I can't see any difference between a police officer in a car as opposed to one on foot.
I know of case law dictating that an officer cannot direct a car to follow a certain route and another of the fact that despite a police officer calling a car forward against red ATS, the driver still has a duty of care (a pedstrian was run over).
I'd like to see some new case law with regard to these automatic systems because as soon as the police get the green light (proceed with care) the fire and ambulance will want the same thing.
A car driving through red lights after being signaled to do so by an officer is an interesting scenario. Whilst the obligation placed on a car driver to drive safely is still there, it's an interesting point as to whether it would be merely to drive through lights. After all, I regularly used to direct traffic around RTAs against red ATS and would have assumed that a live function officer who can take over the roll of director of traffic would override that of an automated system.
I can't see any difference between a police officer in a car as opposed to one on foot.
I know of case law dictating that an officer cannot direct a car to follow a certain route and another of the fact that despite a police officer calling a car forward against red ATS, the driver still has a duty of care (a pedstrian was run over).
I'd like to see some new case law with regard to these automatic systems because as soon as the police get the green light (proceed with care) the fire and ambulance will want the same thing.
This statement from Brent Council has always got me, what happens if I do as Brent Council suggest and one of their camera operators(tax collector)photos me, I imagine I'd end up being done.
http://www.brent.gov.uk/faqs.nsf/69bead3e83f831718...
http://www.brent.gov.uk/faqs.nsf/69bead3e83f831718...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Would the hand gesture come from the police driver or his colleague in the passenger seat? Would it be more or less valid if either of them did the gesture?
What if you perceived the 'move left' gesture to mean 'I am about to move left'?
Questions, questions....it's probably best to let our blue light trained drivers do the leg-work and relieve us mere mortals of any descisions that could land us with a conviction.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
A Police officer can not direct you to commit an offence. An Paramdic cannot direct you to commit an offence.
A Fire officer cannot direct you to commit an offence.
I have said this before it is the responsability of the emergency driver to drive around you, not for you to facilitate the progress of the vehicle by comiting a road traffic offence. Common sense must be used though and blocking an emergency vehicles progresss is also an offence under the RTA. Cant be bothered to quote the section.
You don't really have a defense although you could rely on the good nature of the court should you prefer to go to the courts that is.
I have spent a little time since this morning and cant see any case law to back this up but if you read The Essential Police Drivers Handbook this gives some info.
Thanks for all the advice and comments, guys. Sounds like all I can do now is wait to see if the brown envelope arrives and then decide whether or not to challenge it. I suspect it'll be the usual £120 but we'll reduce it to £60 because we're so nice spiel. If they start waving court summons at me I'll just pay the damn thing and put it down to being helpful. In the meantime, if any of you are held up by a black RS4 refusing to get out of the way, that'll be me. 
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not one for sounding like a broken record but a Police officer in this situation would not be justified in asking you to break the law. The Police driver can use the bus lane in an emergency. This car does not seem to be a police car. Possibly fire chief. The Police can not direct you to break the law. If you can find me the legislation that allows this I will kindly say I am wrong but, I am pretty certain that in the course of their normal duties a poice officer has no juristiction to encourage members of the public to commit an RT offence. As a case for going through a red light. The act of going through a read light is only an offence if there is no superior directive that supersedes the act. Ie a police officer directing traffic. A person in an unmarked car using hand gestures does not satisfy this defense. Basically ther has to be no other alternative.
Hope this helps
The Black Duke said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not one for sounding like a broken record but a Police officer in this situation would not be justified in asking you to break the law. The Police driver can use the bus lane in an emergency. This car does not seem to be a police car. Possibly fire chief. The Police can not direct you to break the law. If you can find me the legislation that allows this I will kindly say I am wrong but, I am pretty certain that in the course of their normal duties a poice officer has no juristiction to encourage members of the public to commit an RT offence. As a case for going through a red light. The act of going through a read light is only an offence if there is no superior directive that supersedes the act. Ie a police officer directing traffic. A person in an unmarked car using hand gestures does not satisfy this defense. Basically ther has to be no other alternative.
Hope this helps
A traffic signal is a direction, just as that of a police officer's is. I would suggest that the direction of a police officer is superior. I would suggest that a direction from a police officer to use a bus lane would be perfectly reasonable. I have done it myself on occasion at RTAs and where I have stopped a car in the road by a bus lane. A vehicle on blues and twos can be regarded as an obstruction, albeit a moving one.
However, my preference is for drivers, when approached by an emergency vehicle on blues and twos, to slow or stop without deviation from their course. Moments only arise when they do something unexpected. I'm all for initiative and imagination but would prefer it when not going at speed.
I would suggest that drivers always follow the directions of a police officer. He/she may be aware of something which you are not. So if one directs you to use a bus lane then it is prudent to do so. There might well be a dangerously driven vehicle coming or other pending hazard. Note time, date and direction of the vehicle in case you receive an FP for the encroachment.
I know of no case stateds on conforming to a police offier's directions at ATS nor bus lanes. Maybe because no process unit nor CPS would have passed the original job if they knew of the circumstances. I certainly would not have done when I was ic a process unit. But there must be a clear direction from a police officer to do so. Don't just do it on your own initiative.
Derek Smith said:
However, my preference is for drivers, when approached by an emergency vehicle on blues and twos, to slow or stop without deviation from their course.
Mine isn't.When i'm going to the job i don't mind having to swerve through the traffic, but if we're alerting a patient in (meaning the patients condition is that bad we use blues and two's on road to hospital) i don't like having to slalom around cars.
If it's a 2 lane road (same direction) and i'm on the right lane i'd prefer cars to move into the left lane instead of just stop right in front of me so i have to swerve around them. If there is space enough in the right lane i will stay left so the cars can go into that other lane.
With a critical patient in the back and a collegue standing over him/her putting in needles and doing all sorts of stuff the less swerving the better.
Derek Smith said:
The Black Duke said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not one for sounding like a broken record but a Police officer in this situation would not be justified in asking you to break the law. The Police driver can use the bus lane in an emergency. This car does not seem to be a police car. Possibly fire chief. The Police can not direct you to break the law. If you can find me the legislation that allows this I will kindly say I am wrong but, I am pretty certain that in the course of their normal duties a poice officer has no jurisdiction to encourage members of the public to commit an RT offence. As a case for going through a red light. The act of going through a read light is only an offence if there is no superior directive that supersedes the act. Ie a police officer directing traffic. A person in an unmarked car using hand gestures does not satisfy this defense. Basically ther has to be no other alternative.
Hope this helps
A traffic signal is a direction, just as that of a police officer's is. I would suggest that the direction of a police officer is superior. I would suggest that a direction from a police officer to use a bus lane would be perfectly reasonable. I have done it myself on occasion at RTAs and where I have stopped a car in the road by a bus lane. A vehicle on blues and twos can be regarded as an obstruction, albeit a moving one.
However, my preference is for drivers, when approached by an emergency vehicle on blues and twos, to slow or stop without deviation from their course. Moments only arise when they do something unexpected. I'm all for initiative and imagination but would prefer it when not going at speed.
I would suggest that drivers always follow the directions of a police officer. He/she may be aware of something which you are not. So if one directs you to use a bus lane then it is prudent to do so. There might well be a dangerously driven vehicle coming or other pending hazard. Note time, date and direction of the vehicle in case you receive an FP for the encroachment.
I know of no case stateds on conforming to a police offier's directions at ATS nor bus lanes. Maybe because no process unit nor CPS would have passed the original job if they knew of the circumstances. I certainly would not have done when I was ic a process unit. But there must be a clear direction from a police officer to do so. Don't just do it on your own initiative.
As for the case law. I agree the lack of previous direction goes to prove my initial argument that if TFL want to be awkward then the CPS in the glorious wisdom should drop the case. ;-)
In general use common sense and you should be fine.
Oh just a quicky arn't you supposed to call them RTC's now? LOL
Edited by The Black Duke on Wednesday 19th March 17:23
The Black Duke said:
In this circumstance it may have been better if the emergency vehicle used the bus lane in the first place although the full facts can not be gained from such a tiny piece of info.
With hindsight, I definitely agree. However, as I watched the car approaching (at speed obviously) behind me, it was in the outside of two lanes (not including the bus lane). In front of me, the road was narrowing to one lane. I indicated left, pulled over and kept moving as I was told once by a brother-in-law paramedic. Giving the emergency vehicle a clearer road and a clear indication of what I was doing seemed the right option at the time.Incidentally, any ideas who it would have been? VW Passat with three blokes on board - so I would have thought police rather than fire.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The Road Traffic Act 1988, S35 is quite clear:Where a constable is for the time being engaged in the regulation of traffic in a road, a person driving or propelling a vehicle who neglects or refuses—
(a) to stop the vehicle, or
(b) to make it proceed in, or keep to, a particular line of traffic,
when directed to do so by the constable in the execution of his duty is guilty of an offence.
There is more but it is irrelvant to this argument. You might be thinking of Special Constables who do not have the authority to direct traffic when not in uniform.
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