got back from holiday to find a summons
Discussion
major bummer and I am gutted.
in a nutshell...
I was test driving a friends car (which is a little quicker than mine) to try and help diagnose a problem he had.
Anyway, he got a NIP, sent in my details, didn't sign it.
Police came to my door a month later, just before i went away, and confirmed my DoB and cautioned me.
The summons is for about 2 weeks away and the speed i apparently did in a 30 has shocked me. I seriously struggle to belive i managed over 40. The only possible thing I can think of is his car being newer and more comfy than my crashy noisy 10years older CRX is I completely failed to make a note of the speed while concentrating too hard on trying to detect the problem with the car. My other problem is I made the fatal mistake of making the assumption that when the spedo read 40 the car was doing 30, this was because my previous experince with a couple of Honda imports from Japan was that the speedos read 10mph over, it turns out that this obviously is not the case with this particular car. Talk about a poor defense
I can't remember now if the copper that came to my door said the 'failure to mention now anything you rely on in court' phrase. If he did, does this mean I can't mention the above, should I not anyway?
I can't begin to describe how angry and dissapointed with myself I am.
Anyway, I need to avoid a ban as the joy that is public transport simply won't get me to work without 3 trains and almost 3 hours of travel as it would mean going into london to come out again on another line.
The summons documents require me to sign the box corresponding with my plea, it'll have to be guilty and I assume the no sign thing won't work here.
I am assuming the following...
- its batter to make the appearance and show how sorry i am rather than not turn up
- taking a letter from my boss saying car is needed will help
- taking certificates of advanced driving course will help
- mentioning that i do trackdays to get my speeds kicks and speeding on the crowded public roads is a no-no may help
Any other suggestions welcome
thanks
in a nutshell...
I was test driving a friends car (which is a little quicker than mine) to try and help diagnose a problem he had.
Anyway, he got a NIP, sent in my details, didn't sign it.
Police came to my door a month later, just before i went away, and confirmed my DoB and cautioned me.
The summons is for about 2 weeks away and the speed i apparently did in a 30 has shocked me. I seriously struggle to belive i managed over 40. The only possible thing I can think of is his car being newer and more comfy than my crashy noisy 10years older CRX is I completely failed to make a note of the speed while concentrating too hard on trying to detect the problem with the car. My other problem is I made the fatal mistake of making the assumption that when the spedo read 40 the car was doing 30, this was because my previous experince with a couple of Honda imports from Japan was that the speedos read 10mph over, it turns out that this obviously is not the case with this particular car. Talk about a poor defense
I can't remember now if the copper that came to my door said the 'failure to mention now anything you rely on in court' phrase. If he did, does this mean I can't mention the above, should I not anyway?
I can't begin to describe how angry and dissapointed with myself I am.
Anyway, I need to avoid a ban as the joy that is public transport simply won't get me to work without 3 trains and almost 3 hours of travel as it would mean going into london to come out again on another line.
The summons documents require me to sign the box corresponding with my plea, it'll have to be guilty and I assume the no sign thing won't work here.
I am assuming the following...
- its batter to make the appearance and show how sorry i am rather than not turn up
- taking a letter from my boss saying car is needed will help
- taking certificates of advanced driving course will help
- mentioning that i do trackdays to get my speeds kicks and speeding on the crowded public roads is a no-no may help
Any other suggestions welcome
thanks
vteclimey said:
Anyway, he got a NIP, sent in my details, didn't sign it.
Police came to my door a month later, just before i went away, and confirmed my DoB and cautioned me.
You appear to be saying that they didn't actually verbally S172 you, i.e. they did not confirm that you were the driver of the car. If not, they have no evidence. Your froiend's S172 is not evidence that you were driving the car at the time of the incident.
robp said:
You say it was in a 30?
If you are certain you were not doing 55+ dont worry about it, surely it'll just be a 3 points and £60 job.
the summons documents say 49
if its true that under 55 is just a 3 pointer and a fine then phew. though i must confess i find it surprising they let you go that fast for just that.
jeffreyarcher said:
Anyway, he got a NIP, sent in my details, didn't sign it.
Police came to my door a month later, just before i went away, and confirmed my DoB and cautioned me.
You appear to be saying that they didn't actually verbally S172 you, i.e. they did not confirm that you were the driver of the car. If not, they have no evidence. Your froiend's S172 is not evidence that you were driving the car at the time of the incident.
ummm, the officer who came to my door said I would receive some paperwork to fill in. all i have received is the summons. presumeably I should have recived an S172 as well as my friend getting one?
If this is the case and I have received a summons in error, how do I state that? I don't have long to return the summons documents and they seem to indicate a signature requirement.
vteclimey said:
Anyway, he got a NIP, sent in my details, didn't sign it.
Police came to my door a month later, just before i went away, and confirmed my DoB and cautioned me.
You appear to be saying that they didn't actually verbally S172 you, i.e. they did not confirm that you were the driver of the car. If not, they have no evidence. Your froiend's S172 is not evidence that you were driving the car at the time of the incident.
ummm, the officer who came to my door said I would receive some paperwork to fill in. all i have received is the summons. presumeably I should have recived an S172 as well as my friend getting one?
You should have been S172d too; either verbally by the police who came to the door, or by a paper one through the post (as appears to have been the intention).
vteclimey said:
If this is the case and I have received a summons in error, how do I state that? I don't have long to return the summons documents and they seem to indicate a signature requirement.
The summons has now been issued, so you now have to defend it. You should seek disclosure of their evidence from the CPS. E.g. the police who came to your door may have lied, your 'friend' may be coming to court as a prosecution witness. Do not point out at this stage that you have never been given an NIP.
If you do not get it seven days before the trial, get on to the court for an adjournment.
AIUI you have to enter a plea of 'not guilty'. At the end of the prosecution case, you enter a plea [don't think that's the correct term] of 'no case to answer' as there is no evidence against you.
>> Edited by jeffreyarcher on Monday 15th September 12:58
thanks for the help, however i am extreemly nervous of taking this route because i don't want it to back fire (ie I defend it wrong, in an effort to get off) and the result is greater cost. is there a site you could point me to with more info on this point? i can't seem to find much to help my specific case in the forum posts.
considering that risk i'll probably sign the guilty and take what comes.
considering that risk i'll probably sign the guilty and take what comes.
Service of an NIP after the event so to speak, must be in writing and can not be given verbally.
The request for driver ID made of the owner of the car allows a new NIP to be sent to the driver disclosed. This has to be posted to you within the 14 day time frame from the moment they received the driver ID from your friend. If it is not then technically the NIP is out of time and a prosecution should be disallowed if commenced. Speak to a solicitor who deals with Motor Law to confirm your circumstances.
Seems to me that from what you've described you should have received an NIP and a Driver ID Requirement along with an offer of accepting a fixed penalty notice and three points WITHOUT necessitating a court appearance. I would examine the documentation you've been sent very carefully and if you have the slightest doubt seek legal advice
Tivster
The request for driver ID made of the owner of the car allows a new NIP to be sent to the driver disclosed. This has to be posted to you within the 14 day time frame from the moment they received the driver ID from your friend. If it is not then technically the NIP is out of time and a prosecution should be disallowed if commenced. Speak to a solicitor who deals with Motor Law to confirm your circumstances.
Seems to me that from what you've described you should have received an NIP and a Driver ID Requirement along with an offer of accepting a fixed penalty notice and three points WITHOUT necessitating a court appearance. I would examine the documentation you've been sent very carefully and if you have the slightest doubt seek legal advice
Tivster
Okay, now I am really confused.
I have just bene on the pepipoo website and it mentions a verbal NIP where the officer says something like 'you may be consider for prosecution' and i am supposed to give my defence at that time.
All i remember is the caution (as i know what that sounds like) but I really, honestly do not recall the verbal NIP being given when the BiB arrived at my door.
If he did, should I have still received anything in the post prior to the summons, as you imply?
Assuming a verbal NIP was given, which I obviously missed. Is it really worth the extra expense of having representation? Afterall, i'll be getting a fine and points regardless anyway.
Thanks again.
I have just bene on the pepipoo website and it mentions a verbal NIP where the officer says something like 'you may be consider for prosecution' and i am supposed to give my defence at that time.
All i remember is the caution (as i know what that sounds like) but I really, honestly do not recall the verbal NIP being given when the BiB arrived at my door.
If he did, should I have still received anything in the post prior to the summons, as you imply?
Assuming a verbal NIP was given, which I obviously missed. Is it really worth the extra expense of having representation? Afterall, i'll be getting a fine and points regardless anyway.
Thanks again.
If you do decide to go to court to plead your case do not under any circumstances mention the Track Days.
Whilst WE know how they can 'improve' attitudes to road driving those worthy members of the Bench are more likely to pidgeon hole you as a dangerous speed merchant and punish you accordingly.
Whilst WE know how they can 'improve' attitudes to road driving those worthy members of the Bench are more likely to pidgeon hole you as a dangerous speed merchant and punish you accordingly.
Whats the summons for? Is it for the offense of speeding, the offense of not returning your NIP or for not supplying details?
It could be that a NIP was sent but got lost in the post (despite the Police systems attitude that if they posted it then you must have received it). In which case you would not have been able to respond within the required time limit.
It could be that a NIP was sent but got lost in the post (despite the Police systems attitude that if they posted it then you must have received it). In which case you would not have been able to respond within the required time limit.
Yes - this sounds a strange case mate, and obviously I can't make too many comments because I am not in possession of all the facts - but here are a couple of things that spring to my mind.
Firstly - what evidence do they have of you doing 49?? You say you were very surprised that it registered you at this speed - it could be wrong - misreadings do happen. Is it a Gatso camera or another camera?
If you have been summoned to appear in court then by disclosure you are entightled to see their evidence. Make sure they send you BOTH pictures to prove you were doing this speed if it was a Gatso. Have a good look at the pictures when you get them - are the lines clear enough to demostrate in court that you were in fact speeding - if not then maybe there is no way that they can actually prove the allegation.
Also - some of the points mentioned in previous letters are very valid - S172 - you haven't signed anything that claims you were the driver.
Remeber if you do have a summons for the speeding offense, then by contesting this in the best way you can is your right - you are innocent until proven guilty. Make sure when you do go to court that you explain the a fixed penalty was never offered to you (if that is in fact the case).
Firstly - what evidence do they have of you doing 49?? You say you were very surprised that it registered you at this speed - it could be wrong - misreadings do happen. Is it a Gatso camera or another camera?
If you have been summoned to appear in court then by disclosure you are entightled to see their evidence. Make sure they send you BOTH pictures to prove you were doing this speed if it was a Gatso. Have a good look at the pictures when you get them - are the lines clear enough to demostrate in court that you were in fact speeding - if not then maybe there is no way that they can actually prove the allegation.
Also - some of the points mentioned in previous letters are very valid - S172 - you haven't signed anything that claims you were the driver.
Remeber if you do have a summons for the speeding offense, then by contesting this in the best way you can is your right - you are innocent until proven guilty. Make sure when you do go to court that you explain the a fixed penalty was never offered to you (if that is in fact the case).
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