Undertaking- Should it be allowed
Discussion
What would you do in this situation?
You are driving along on say, a Dual carriageway which as we all now know is subject to a 70mph speed limit (if it has a National Speed limit sign), and Mrs Miggins is driving along in lane 2 of 2 at about 60mph.
We all see driving like this all day long...the question is, would you undertake or sit behind her?
There are lots of arguments both for and against overtaking on the nearside and from my point of view we see this all the time.
Edited to say that im not a sad person being up at this time..im at work and before you ask,im having a stress break!
>>> Edited by tonyrec on Thursday 9th October 02:55
You are driving along on say, a Dual carriageway which as we all now know is subject to a 70mph speed limit (if it has a National Speed limit sign), and Mrs Miggins is driving along in lane 2 of 2 at about 60mph.
We all see driving like this all day long...the question is, would you undertake or sit behind her?
There are lots of arguments both for and against overtaking on the nearside and from my point of view we see this all the time.
Edited to say that im not a sad person being up at this time..im at work and before you ask,im having a stress break!
>>> Edited by tonyrec on Thursday 9th October 02:55
I'd pull up behind, not tail-gating, but close enough for them to have noticed me.
If that doesn't work, maybe try a single flash of my headlights.
If they still haven't moved, then it's indicate left, down a gear, and round the "wrong" side.
If I'm in the lefthand lane and travelling quicker than the traffic in the lanes to my right, I have no qualms about "undertaking".
I only do this on a private test-track, of course Unfortunately, in the real world, it's becoming a necessary evil.
A lot of drivers seem to think "I'm turning right at the next roundabout so I'll get into the correct lane now". Even though it's several miles too early and there are 8 sets of traffic lights in between...it's taking the p
s
I'm of the opinion that anyone who does not maintain correct lane discipline should be charged with "driving without due care and attention".
If that doesn't work, maybe try a single flash of my headlights.
If they still haven't moved, then it's indicate left, down a gear, and round the "wrong" side.
If I'm in the lefthand lane and travelling quicker than the traffic in the lanes to my right, I have no qualms about "undertaking".
I only do this on a private test-track, of course
Unfortunately, in the real world, it's becoming a necessary evil. A lot of drivers seem to think "I'm turning right at the next roundabout so I'll get into the correct lane now". Even though it's several miles too early and there are 8 sets of traffic lights in between...it's taking the p
s I'm of the opinion that anyone who does not maintain correct lane discipline should be charged with "driving without due care and attention".
1) Visible warning of approach (headlights).
2) Audible warning of approach (town horn).
3) Audible warning of approach (air-horn).
4) Prolonged audible warning of approach (air-horn).
5) Observe that, as a consequence of 4, they have belatedly begun to indicate that they are turning right and pass on the left per HC 139 "... overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right ..."
An alternative to (5) is to assume that, having been warned of my approach (by 1, 2, 3 and 4), their continued positioning on the road is in compliance with HC 136 "Once moving you should keep to the left, unless road signs or markings indicate otherwise. The exceptions are when you want to ... turn right ...", bearing in mind that HC 116 advises drivers, "On a two-lane dual carriageway you should stay in the left-hand lane. Use the right-hand lane for overtaking or turning right. If you use it for overtaking move back to the left-hand lane when it is safe to do so." and 117, "On a three-lane dual carriageway, you may use the middle lane or the right-hand lane to overtake but return to the middle and then the left-hand lane when it is safe."
Streaky
>> Edited by streaky on Thursday 9th October 06:24
2) Audible warning of approach (town horn).
3) Audible warning of approach (air-horn).
4) Prolonged audible warning of approach (air-horn).
5) Observe that, as a consequence of 4, they have belatedly begun to indicate that they are turning right and pass on the left per HC 139 "... overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right ..."
An alternative to (5) is to assume that, having been warned of my approach (by 1, 2, 3 and 4), their continued positioning on the road is in compliance with HC 136 "Once moving you should keep to the left, unless road signs or markings indicate otherwise. The exceptions are when you want to ... turn right ...", bearing in mind that HC 116 advises drivers, "On a two-lane dual carriageway you should stay in the left-hand lane. Use the right-hand lane for overtaking or turning right. If you use it for overtaking move back to the left-hand lane when it is safe to do so." and 117, "On a three-lane dual carriageway, you may use the middle lane or the right-hand lane to overtake but return to the middle and then the left-hand lane when it is safe."
Streaky
>> Edited by streaky on Thursday 9th October 06:24
Empty carraigeway - I'm probably going to be in lane 1, so instead of pulling out to overtake, just sail past in the inside lane.
No stress, no lights flashing, no holding anyone up.
They probably wont have used the mirror for miles anyhow, so i'll be infront of them before they know i'm there.
Get ready to chuck on the anchors, just in case.
No stress, no lights flashing, no holding anyone up.
They probably wont have used the mirror for miles anyhow, so i'll be infront of them before they know i'm there.
Get ready to chuck on the anchors, just in case.
if someone knowingly wont move over to the left when the nearside is clear when a line of traffic is sitting behind them and they are doing under the displayed speed limit i dont have any hesitation in passing on the inside of them,why should we all have to sit in a rolling traffic jam just because some selfish twat doesnt know,or doesnt care what lane they should be in.
sorry if it ruffles any feathers but im not waiting for an invite to arrive before they pull in,they get a right hand indecator on for 7-10 flashes,if they ignore that then its a quick couple of flashes from the full beams,if the miopic bastard doesnt see that then its a blast of 'dixieland',if they still dont pull over so we can pass then im up their inside and passing weather they like it or not.
>> Edited by cortinaman on Thursday 9th October 06:39
sorry if it ruffles any feathers but im not waiting for an invite to arrive before they pull in,they get a right hand indecator on for 7-10 flashes,if they ignore that then its a quick couple of flashes from the full beams,if the miopic bastard doesnt see that then its a blast of 'dixieland',if they still dont pull over so we can pass then im up their inside and passing weather they like it or not.
>> Edited by cortinaman on Thursday 9th October 06:39
when they don't move over at all....
If I want to make progress when some muppet is lane hogging, then sure I'll undertake (safely of course), especially on the bike.
Having driven lots in the States, I feel undertaking works fine. It's just a matter of increased visability (i.e. exepct people to pass on both sides, so always look before changing into/from ANY lane).
Having driven lots in the States, I feel undertaking works fine. It's just a matter of increased visability (i.e. exepct people to pass on both sides, so always look before changing into/from ANY lane).
Assuming the road is quiet, so there's only me & Mrs Miggins in the equation, I'd be in lane 1, so would move out behind her (not too close) with right hand indicator on (this usually works). Having dipped headlights on increases the efficacy (ooh, long word!) of this. If not, a short flash of the lights (not 15 flashes and hand gestures!!!). If that doesn't work, I'd probably move in to the inside lane, then try the whole thing again before passing on the inside 
But while we're on the subject, there's something I see regularly on my way to work in the morning that really irritates me. On the A52 dual carriageway from M1 in to Derby, there are a number of local roads which join with very short sliproads. It's really difficult to join a 70mph road from a standing start and normally most of the traffic moves in to lane 2 to let them out. This means that lane 2 drops to about 55mph, but no emergency braking or anything and traffic keeps flowing and allows the filtering traffic in safely. Every couple of days, you see everyone move out, and then some muppet uses the space in lane 1 to overtake everyone at 90. How bloody inconsiderate is that?
But while we're on the subject, there's something I see regularly on my way to work in the morning that really irritates me. On the A52 dual carriageway from M1 in to Derby, there are a number of local roads which join with very short sliproads. It's really difficult to join a 70mph road from a standing start and normally most of the traffic moves in to lane 2 to let them out. This means that lane 2 drops to about 55mph, but no emergency braking or anything and traffic keeps flowing and allows the filtering traffic in safely. Every couple of days, you see everyone move out, and then some muppet uses the space in lane 1 to overtake everyone at 90. How bloody inconsiderate is that?
If I'm in the inside lane already, I'll sail down the inside watching their front wheels *very* carefully.
If I'm in the outside lane (both cars have just passed a lorry for example) and the inside lane has become clear, then a quick flash of the lights is in order. "I'm here".
No signs of life, indicate and pull in. No reaction, lights on, carefully down the inside.......
If I'm in the outside lane (both cars have just passed a lorry for example) and the inside lane has become clear, then a quick flash of the lights is in order. "I'm here".
No signs of life, indicate and pull in. No reaction, lights on, carefully down the inside.......
Try driving through Milton Keynes in the morning without undertaking! People sit in the RH lane not because they are turning right at the next roundabout, or even at the one after that, but usually because they are turning right in three or four roundabouts time! I used to sit in the LH lane grumbling until they finally lit their RH indicators and I could nip past with a clear conscience. Within a few months of commuting through MK daily, I started undertaking without worrying about it (especially after observing serveral of TV's finest doing the same thing!!)
On the M1 I won't undertake as such (ie change lanes just to pass on the inside), I tend to be looking ahead to see where the lanes are flowing and make sure I'm in the right on at the right time. Doesn't seem to overly annoy other drivers, and none of the (few) traffic cars I've seen have batted an eyelid.
Having said that, I don't think making undertaking "legal" is too good an idea. Too many numpties have a problem just checking one mirror before pulling out, never mind checking the other before pulling back in!
On the M1 I won't undertake as such (ie change lanes just to pass on the inside), I tend to be looking ahead to see where the lanes are flowing and make sure I'm in the right on at the right time. Doesn't seem to overly annoy other drivers, and none of the (few) traffic cars I've seen have batted an eyelid.
Having said that, I don't think making undertaking "legal" is too good an idea. Too many numpties have a problem just checking one mirror before pulling out, never mind checking the other before pulling back in!
There is NO offence of overtaking on the nearside. This means that a person cannot be prosecuted where the only fact brought to the court's attention is that that a driver overtook on the nearside.
If, in the opinion of a officer, the manouvre was such that it amounted to driving without due care then additional evidence would be required - such as the possibility of danger caused to other road users.
The Highway Code gives rise to the question, if overtaking on the nearside is OK if the person on the outside lane is intending to turn right, why is it not when the person is not intending to do so?
An overtake of the offside of a single caqrriageway road is more risky than staying behind a vehicle. My feeling is that overtaking on the nearside, where the car in front in fully aware of your presence and intention, is considerably safer.
Derek
If, in the opinion of a officer, the manouvre was such that it amounted to driving without due care then additional evidence would be required - such as the possibility of danger caused to other road users.
The Highway Code gives rise to the question, if overtaking on the nearside is OK if the person on the outside lane is intending to turn right, why is it not when the person is not intending to do so?
An overtake of the offside of a single caqrriageway road is more risky than staying behind a vehicle. My feeling is that overtaking on the nearside, where the car in front in fully aware of your presence and intention, is considerably safer.
Derek
I'd wait behind her for a bit, maybe put my headlights on. If nothing happens after 10 secs or so I'd pull into the inside lane, check there were no Police around and cruise past slowly ready to take evasive action. Obviously I wouldn't do this if we were approaching an exit.
I take the approach that if the driver wants to sit in the outside lane then fine, I'll drive around them and continue on my way. I won't have inconvenienced them in any way at all. Amazing how many still flash you for this though. Doesn't bother me any more.
Of course, there are some drivers I'd rather be behind than in front of. The ones who look like an accident waiting to happen.
I take the approach that if the driver wants to sit in the outside lane then fine, I'll drive around them and continue on my way. I won't have inconvenienced them in any way at all. Amazing how many still flash you for this though. Doesn't bother me any more.
Of course, there are some drivers I'd rather be behind than in front of. The ones who look like an accident waiting to happen.
When confronted with the situation discribed by Tonyrec, assuming the road is clear with just me and Numpty, I would pull out from the left lane behind the RH lane hogger (at a distance) and as I closed on them, if they didn't wake up and move over I would give them a flash with the head lights (I am HERE!!!). If no response I would indicate left and cruise past on the inside feeling slightly guilty about it and hoping that there were no traffic police men around to give me a hard time.
If I was pulled for doing this, I would explain my actions and reasons, point out that I have had further driver training which has increased my road awareness and observational skills and hope that the Traffic Cop was having a good day.
If I was pulled for doing this, I would explain my actions and reasons, point out that I have had further driver training which has increased my road awareness and observational skills and hope that the Traffic Cop was having a good day.
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