Road safety officers kill
Discussion
From the Bristol Evening Post.
A Driver convicted of causing an accident in which a motorcyclist died was working as a road safety officer for South Gloucestershire Council, it has been revealed. Jeremy Harris admitted pulling across the path of an oncoming motorcycle, being ridden by Michael Frost, on the B4058 Iron Acton bypass at Iron Acton.
Harris, aged 43, of Abbeydale, Winterbourne, also admitted having two bald tyres on the front of his Vauxhall Vectra when the accident happened on April 23.
North Avon magistrates were told that Harris' job as a safety officer was to investigate road accidents and make remedial recommendations.
Crown prosecutor Vera Kudlac said that Mr Frost was riding his
Kawasaki Ninja ZX-7R on the B4058 from Yate towards Frampton Cotterell.
She said: "The driver of the Vauxhall Vectra was driving on the same road towards Yate.
"He turned right, but did not see Mr Frost and there was a collision." Mr Frost, aged 43, of Longcroft, Yate, suffered fatal injuries and died later at Frenchay Hospital.
Bristol's deputy coroner Brian Whitehouse recorded a verdict of
accidental death last week.
Harris was given six penalty points on his licence for driving without due care and attention, fined £170 and a further £150 for the tyre offences and ordered to pay £35 court costs.
A Driver convicted of causing an accident in which a motorcyclist died was working as a road safety officer for South Gloucestershire Council, it has been revealed. Jeremy Harris admitted pulling across the path of an oncoming motorcycle, being ridden by Michael Frost, on the B4058 Iron Acton bypass at Iron Acton.
Harris, aged 43, of Abbeydale, Winterbourne, also admitted having two bald tyres on the front of his Vauxhall Vectra when the accident happened on April 23.
North Avon magistrates were told that Harris' job as a safety officer was to investigate road accidents and make remedial recommendations.
Crown prosecutor Vera Kudlac said that Mr Frost was riding his
Kawasaki Ninja ZX-7R on the B4058 from Yate towards Frampton Cotterell.
She said: "The driver of the Vauxhall Vectra was driving on the same road towards Yate.
"He turned right, but did not see Mr Frost and there was a collision." Mr Frost, aged 43, of Longcroft, Yate, suffered fatal injuries and died later at Frenchay Hospital.
Bristol's deputy coroner Brian Whitehouse recorded a verdict of
accidental death last week.
Harris was given six penalty points on his licence for driving without due care and attention, fined £170 and a further £150 for the tyre offences and ordered to pay £35 court costs.
rsvnigel said:
Harris was given six penalty points on his licence for driving without due care and attention, fined £170 and a further £150 for the tyre offences and ordered to pay £35 court costs.
6 points for killing a biker by driving into him in an illegal car.
The tyres should have been 3 points each!
In other words the bikers death wasn't even considerd worth of comment.
The only thing plod give a toss about is speeding.
QED.
Difficult one this. I have to say I believe motorcyclists take on an increased risk when they don their leathers and venture out.
Had this been a car - car accident, likely no one would have been badly hurt, and the sentence passed would probably have been considered harsh. Tyres are, after all, a wear item on a car.
I think when the accidents happen the motorcyclist has to take on an element of blame for just being there. Imagine for a second that the motorcyclist wasn't wearing a helmet. We would all say stupid to**er, no wonder he died. I think we all take on an element of blame for the way we protect ourselves, or not, against the expected. Most motorcyclists budget on when they are next going to have an accident rather than if.
Its a sad fact of life that motorcyclists come off worse in accidents, they're more difficult to see comming.
While none of this excuses someone from pulling out in front of a motorcyclist, having suboptimal braking ability, or even compounds it by being a safety inspector, I wouldn't want this guys head on a pole for it either.
Had this been a car - car accident, likely no one would have been badly hurt, and the sentence passed would probably have been considered harsh. Tyres are, after all, a wear item on a car.
I think when the accidents happen the motorcyclist has to take on an element of blame for just being there. Imagine for a second that the motorcyclist wasn't wearing a helmet. We would all say stupid to**er, no wonder he died. I think we all take on an element of blame for the way we protect ourselves, or not, against the expected. Most motorcyclists budget on when they are next going to have an accident rather than if.
Its a sad fact of life that motorcyclists come off worse in accidents, they're more difficult to see comming.
While none of this excuses someone from pulling out in front of a motorcyclist, having suboptimal braking ability, or even compounds it by being a safety inspector, I wouldn't want this guys head on a pole for it either.
Toad
Something we do agree on, this sentance is utterly ridiculous. Somebody loses their life in an RTA, due to another driver and that driver gets a £260 FINE and 6 points, WTF!!! You could get a bigger fine than that if you decide to take your speeding conviction to court!! What the hell is the judicial system coming to.
That guy should have been looking at a sentance, minimum. Perhaps (if any of them still read) the BiB would like to comment on what he could/should have recieved.
Something we do agree on, this sentance is utterly ridiculous. Somebody loses their life in an RTA, due to another driver and that driver gets a £260 FINE and 6 points, WTF!!! You could get a bigger fine than that if you decide to take your speeding conviction to court!! What the hell is the judicial system coming to.
That guy should have been looking at a sentance, minimum. Perhaps (if any of them still read) the BiB would like to comment on what he could/should have recieved.
Julian64 said:
Tyres are, after all, a wear item on a car.
If you or I go out with two worn tyres it's 3 points each. 2 tyres = 6 points.
Apparently killing a biker + having worn tyres is no worse than just having worn tyres.
Julian64 said:
I think when the accidents happen the motorcyclist has to take on an element of blame for just being there.
I can follow the logic but don't have much sympathy for the view. I bet you don't apply the same logic to cyclists!
Julian64 said:
I wouldn't want this guys head on a pole for it either.
Agree. But if he'd been given 6 for careless driving and 6 for tyres then under totting up he could be banned. Isn't that fair?
As it is driving with illegal tyres and killing someone is less of an issue than doing 85 in a 70 four times!
Let's think about that. Assuming every motorist in the country has driven with excess speed four times then we are *all* worse than a killer?
Cannot believe the state of our legal system at the moment. Yes on a scale of what people are getting for speeding, killing a another road user by your own error should be a ban. However, coming back one step, does that mean you all agree with the way speeding is currently being dealt with 
.
The fact that this guy deals with the aftermath of RTA's etc should actually mean a greater sentence IMHO, because of his 'knowledge' you could consider what he did to be verging on the willful/reckless, more than an 'average informed' driver, say.
Not lose sight or forget the human isues here, it is all very sad for those involved.
IMHO the justice system has f**ked up yet again, when will be rid of these baffoons that seemd to think they know better. Perhaps the guy doing the sentencing for this should be locked up for being a
wit of the highest order.
Harry
. The fact that this guy deals with the aftermath of RTA's etc should actually mean a greater sentence IMHO, because of his 'knowledge' you could consider what he did to be verging on the willful/reckless, more than an 'average informed' driver, say.
Not lose sight or forget the human isues here, it is all very sad for those involved.
IMHO the justice system has f**ked up yet again, when will be rid of these baffoons that seemd to think they know better. Perhaps the guy doing the sentencing for this should be locked up for being a
wit of the highest order. Harry
Just re-read the original post again. And nowhere does it say that either party was speeding. I am assuming that the Car driver wasn't speeding as he was turning right (unless he was doing a handbrake turn at 50mph), There was nothing written about the speed of the Biker.
As has been previously written, without the full facts its a bit harsh to make judgements.
However, my view is still the same, the car driver has been provided a leinient sentence irrespective of the bikers speed. And again Toad is correct, the message being sent from this, is that having four speeding offences which would lead to a ban, or even getting caught 30mph over the road limit will get you a ban, but being responsible for the death of another road user and you effectivly get away scott free. OK the car driver is going to have the death of the biker on his conscious for many years but at least he can still drive himself to work!!
I know the prisons are overcrowded and I'm not advocating this guy gets landed with a load of harsh lags, but what about driver re-training, and some sort of community service??
As has been previously written, without the full facts its a bit harsh to make judgements.
However, my view is still the same, the car driver has been provided a leinient sentence irrespective of the bikers speed. And again Toad is correct, the message being sent from this, is that having four speeding offences which would lead to a ban, or even getting caught 30mph over the road limit will get you a ban, but being responsible for the death of another road user and you effectivly get away scott free. OK the car driver is going to have the death of the biker on his conscious for many years but at least he can still drive himself to work!!
I know the prisons are overcrowded and I'm not advocating this guy gets landed with a load of harsh lags, but what about driver re-training, and some sort of community service??
Err... no!
He should go down - ffs he's killed a man through his own negligence.
(imo he should go down for hypocrisy but that'll never happen)
How can being caught TWICE on a scamera be remotely similar to taking someone's life - six points is nowhere near harsh enough... country, hell, handbasket...
He should go down - ffs he's killed a man through his own negligence.
(imo he should go down for hypocrisy but that'll never happen)
How can being caught TWICE on a scamera be remotely similar to taking someone's life - six points is nowhere near harsh enough... country, hell, handbasket...
CB-Dave said:
Err... no!
How can being caught TWICE on a scamera be remotely similar to taking someone's life - six points is nowhere near harsh enough... country, hell, handbasket...
Amen. I can't wait for some plod to comment on this.
Tvrslag: Spartan thing is a blatent troll! I'd already come clean but for some reason people are still getting wound up. ;-) ;-)
Hang on a minute.... bloke gets 6 points and a total of around £400 fine and thats it for killing someone, yet bloke on motorbike doing 157 gets 6 months in prison, a 12 month ban and HUGE fine..... now there is parity.... what the hell is happening here?
Whats-her-face from Eastenders just got done for drink driving and got a 12 month ban and sizeable fine (though not in line with her salary of course). This is fair as she caused no accident and no nussance on the roads.... just got done for DD. However, bloke kills a motorcyclist with 2 bald tyres and is a "safety officer" and gets 6 points and bugger all fine....
What is this country coming too.... you know, its not the police, its the damn courts.... sending the wrong people down and letting others off.... joke, one big fat unfunny, horrible joke...
Justice - what justice...
Whats-her-face from Eastenders just got done for drink driving and got a 12 month ban and sizeable fine (though not in line with her salary of course). This is fair as she caused no accident and no nussance on the roads.... just got done for DD. However, bloke kills a motorcyclist with 2 bald tyres and is a "safety officer" and gets 6 points and bugger all fine....
What is this country coming too.... you know, its not the police, its the damn courts.... sending the wrong people down and letting others off.... joke, one big fat unfunny, horrible joke...
Justice - what justice...
Toad,
I supected as much hence the reason why I decided to reserve judgement and let your view be heard and not let rip with a load of vitriol. I read your comments concerning the baby that was stabbed and killed on the General gasing forum so I kinda figured that you can't be too bad.
Oh dear my opinion on the drivers punishement seems far to leniant as well.
It certainly does seem out of step with other recently reported sentances received for various offences.
I supected as much hence the reason why I decided to reserve judgement and let your view be heard and not let rip with a load of vitriol. I read your comments concerning the baby that was stabbed and killed on the General gasing forum so I kinda figured that you can't be too bad.
Oh dear my opinion on the drivers punishement seems far to leniant as well.
It certainly does seem out of step with other recently reported sentances received for various offences.
Ummm What penalty DOES cover a human life? This was apparently a minor error that 99.9999% of the time results in ... NOTHING - no crash, injury, hurt, etc. How many of us have done it - there but for the grace of God etc. If the guy is a normal, decent human being (which most people are) he'll be punishing himself FAR harder than any court sentence ever could. So do we punish according to the scale of the offence, or according to the consequences? Most legal systems punish the offence, with consequences being a secondary issue. Ruining/killing this man is not going to make the roads any safer; it's not going to bring back the biker; it's not going to deter others from making similar errors.
HOWEVER: the bald tyres thing is different. As a Safety officer, the magnitude of the offence is MUCH greater than for a regular dumb-**s motorist. Books could/should be thrown at such offences, no question. By running on worn tyres, he was taking unjustified risks with his life/well-being and on those of everyone who came close to him. Hanging's too good...
Speed-related offences are different again. Laws that make for mechanical punishments by mechanical devices have no place (my opinion) in a modern legal system (I'm contesting a SCAMERA NIP as we speak). Offences should be judged on the severity of the offence - degree of recklessness/danger etc. Trouble is: how do you do this? as we all know thousands of such offences are committed every day. They are almost impossible to catch and hard to prosecute - mainly because the integrity of the police force has been so massively eroded over the years. I haven't got the answer - just asking the question.
HOWEVER: the bald tyres thing is different. As a Safety officer, the magnitude of the offence is MUCH greater than for a regular dumb-**s motorist. Books could/should be thrown at such offences, no question. By running on worn tyres, he was taking unjustified risks with his life/well-being and on those of everyone who came close to him. Hanging's too good...
Speed-related offences are different again. Laws that make for mechanical punishments by mechanical devices have no place (my opinion) in a modern legal system (I'm contesting a SCAMERA NIP as we speak). Offences should be judged on the severity of the offence - degree of recklessness/danger etc. Trouble is: how do you do this? as we all know thousands of such offences are committed every day. They are almost impossible to catch and hard to prosecute - mainly because the integrity of the police force has been so massively eroded over the years. I haven't got the answer - just asking the question.
pbrettle said:
What is this country coming too.... you know, its not the police, its the damn courts.... sending the wrong people down and letting others off.... joke, one big fat unfunny, horrible joke...
Justice - what justice...
Blame the CPS (criminal protection service) I'm a rozzer & countless times have I seen cases where the guilt of the offender was clear & all the CPS have done is drop the offence charged to one less serious just so they can secure a conviction easier. Certainly doesn't seem much parity with the biker case quoted above, mind you had the biker already received bans/convictions etc as the courts will consider these?
Speeding kills? Nope! It's the stopping all of a sudden that usually kills!
On a more serious note something needs to be done on our roads with regards to speed, in my division in mid wales there have so far been 14 deaths this year mainly due to speed/driver error....I watched one of these die, a 16 year old boy, paramedics couldn't do anything for him....his brother had come round a corner too fast, lost it & skidded into a stationary recovery truck, worst wreck I've seen & quite harrowing........it's when you see things like this that you start to think about speeding a little more.
Solutions? Dunno, maybe more of these automated signs before bad corners?
Camera vans & fixed sites...an unequivocal NO! in my opinion
jatrichardson said:
So do we punish according to the scale of the offence
Of th eoffence of course!
Two lots of 3 for the tyres. 6 points for the due care.
That would still be a more leniant sentence than prison for speeding!
He was lucky not to get done for death by dangerous driving.
Charlie bravo.
Its nice to see at least one BiB still reading and willing to get involved in a thread.
Its interesting what you said concerning securing a conviction. Many of us will have seen the typical American Lawyer program where said lawyer batters with the prosecution in an effort to get their client a lighter sentence in agreement for a secured conviction. I didn't realise this thing was prevailant in our society as well.
Its nice to see at least one BiB still reading and willing to get involved in a thread.
Its interesting what you said concerning securing a conviction. Many of us will have seen the typical American Lawyer program where said lawyer batters with the prosecution in an effort to get their client a lighter sentence in agreement for a secured conviction. I didn't realise this thing was prevailant in our society as well.
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