NIP - Pre Trial review.
Discussion
Hmmm, well I didn't sign it, got the summons (sect 172 - failure to sign or whatever) and sent back a plea of not guilty. So now it's been adjourned for a pre-trial review as opposed to a trial! Presumably to test if there's a case to answer and the fors & againsts.
I don't have to attend and probably won't as to do so will disclose my opinions to the prosecution and I'm not qualified. Or should I go and explain why there's no case to answer? I'm happy for them to do all the work and hoping it will get dropped
but I'll test it anyway.
Legal eagles, any advice greatfully appreciated. Thank you.
I don't have to attend and probably won't as to do so will disclose my opinions to the prosecution and I'm not qualified. Or should I go and explain why there's no case to answer? I'm happy for them to do all the work and hoping it will get dropped
but I'll test it anyway. Legal eagles, any advice greatfully appreciated. Thank you.
I'm at the same stage. Summons received, not guilty plea entered (both speeding and failure to supply) and the case has been adjourned.
We must both keep each other (and the rest of the forum !!) abreast of developments.
I shall be calling the scamera operator to give evidence (it'll keep the ba
rd off the road for the day) and, hopefully, somebody from the Admin backup team in the partnership who, I believe, haven't done their homework properly. A letter about that will be off to the CPS and the Justices Clerk tomorrow.
We must both keep each other (and the rest of the forum !!) abreast of developments.
I shall be calling the scamera operator to give evidence (it'll keep the ba
rd off the road for the day) and, hopefully, somebody from the Admin backup team in the partnership who, I believe, haven't done their homework properly. A letter about that will be off to the CPS and the Justices Clerk tomorrow.That's what I'm going to do. As far as I know it was a hidden gatso but I still can't find it. Maybe it was a mobile. I never saw it and wasn't going fast - 38 mph. The 2 witnesses are civilian clerks processing paperwork at police hq. No way will they want to go to court and if they do it will mean everybody waiting all day, because I shall be late or ill.
The force in this matter is Notts.
Are there any legal opinions about pre-trial reviews and what's entailed?
The force in this matter is Notts.
Are there any legal opinions about pre-trial reviews and what's entailed?
Wouldn't recommend being too late for court or they'll have you for failing to appear as well.
Failing to sign is different from failing to provide details of the driver. Not signing doesn't have any impact on how you can be dealt with.
This quote is from caselaw.
"If it can be properly inferred from the evidence that an unsigned form 172 was made by the defendant, it is admissible in evidence as a confession. "
Failing to sign is different from failing to provide details of the driver. Not signing doesn't have any impact on how you can be dealt with.
This quote is from caselaw.
"If it can be properly inferred from the evidence that an unsigned form 172 was made by the defendant, it is admissible in evidence as a confession. "
318ti said:
Wouldn't recommend being too late for court or they'll have you for failing to appear as well.
Failing to sign is different from failing to provide details of the driver. Not signing doesn't have any impact on how you can be dealt with.
This quote is from caselaw.
That's an interesting point, only they don't have it
"If it can be properly inferred from the evidence that an unsigned form 172 was made by the defendant, it is admissible in evidence as a confession. "
I thought that if the unsigned NIP was to be considered as an unsigned confession it had to be considered under PACE, and that for PACE to be invoked any person confessing had to have had his/her rights explained to him/her prior to the confession being made.
There may be exceptions to this where other evidence is involved, but surely if the only evidence is the unsigned NIP and a photograph of a number plate, to convict without the prior formal caution is simply asking for an appeal, up to the European Courts if necessary.
There may be exceptions to this where other evidence is involved, but surely if the only evidence is the unsigned NIP and a photograph of a number plate, to convict without the prior formal caution is simply asking for an appeal, up to the European Courts if necessary.
Well I know they haven't got it signed or unsigned. They sent it back to me and blow me down I don't quite know where it is now. I may have signed it and posted it back but can't quite remember right this moment
Lets see what they come up with.
>> Edited by Boosted LS1 on Tuesday 11th November 21:26
Lets see what they come up with.
>> Edited by Boosted LS1 on Tuesday 11th November 21:26
This is the "official" line in my case (subject to amendment, if anybody knows an better!!):
"I was sent an NIP with an "offer" to accept a £60 fine and 3 points. I did not wish to accept a fixed penalty; I wanted the case to be heard before a magistrate.
A couple of months later I received a letter advising me that I had not responded to the FPN, and gave me a further 10 days to pay up and send in my licence. As I said, I wanted the case to be heard before a court, so I took no further action.
It is clear at this point, if no other, that the camera partnership were in possesion of a form showing me as the driver. If they did not, then clearly they should not have sent out the reminder letter, as they would have had no evidence to support making an offer of a FPN in the first place, let alone issuing a reminder letter.
I then receive a summons for two charges, one of speeding and another for failing to supply driver information. On querying this with the CPS, as I felt the two charges were mutually exclusive, I received a reply effectively telling me that I had not signed the original form. This was the first I had heard of it - it appears that I may have omitted to sign it.
I was unaware of the implications of not signing at the time I received it. (However, having done some research, I am aware now
)
The scamera partnership failed to point out to me that I had apparently not signed the form - the first I knew of it was when the summons arrived. I work for a social housing provider and, from time to time, we need to take action against people who may have forgotten to pay their rent. It is, however, commonplace to bring the matter to their attention and give them the opportunity to put the matter right, before we apply to the court for an eviction warrant. Do you not think that similar considerations should apply in circumstances such as these?"
>> Edited by rs1952 on Wednesday 12th November 20:01
"I was sent an NIP with an "offer" to accept a £60 fine and 3 points. I did not wish to accept a fixed penalty; I wanted the case to be heard before a magistrate.
A couple of months later I received a letter advising me that I had not responded to the FPN, and gave me a further 10 days to pay up and send in my licence. As I said, I wanted the case to be heard before a court, so I took no further action.
It is clear at this point, if no other, that the camera partnership were in possesion of a form showing me as the driver. If they did not, then clearly they should not have sent out the reminder letter, as they would have had no evidence to support making an offer of a FPN in the first place, let alone issuing a reminder letter.
I then receive a summons for two charges, one of speeding and another for failing to supply driver information. On querying this with the CPS, as I felt the two charges were mutually exclusive, I received a reply effectively telling me that I had not signed the original form. This was the first I had heard of it - it appears that I may have omitted to sign it.
I was unaware of the implications of not signing at the time I received it. (However, having done some research, I am aware now
) The scamera partnership failed to point out to me that I had apparently not signed the form - the first I knew of it was when the summons arrived. I work for a social housing provider and, from time to time, we need to take action against people who may have forgotten to pay their rent. It is, however, commonplace to bring the matter to their attention and give them the opportunity to put the matter right, before we apply to the court for an eviction warrant. Do you not think that similar considerations should apply in circumstances such as these?"
>> Edited by rs1952 on Wednesday 12th November 20:01
318ti said:
To be honest, i think the NIP's that on the police send out, the request for a signiture is quite obvious. Are the scamera ones any different in layout?
Not sure of the point you are making. We all forget to do things from time to time - has nobody ever had occasion to return something to you pointing out that you have not completed all of it? I've certainly received one or two documents back over the years!!!
One gets so forgetful with old age, you see .... I can be lying in bed on a Sunday morning, turn to her and say "what about it?" She'll say "you've had that ...."
And, d'you know, I can't remember ......
rs1952 said:I take your point, and there might be some (or no) mileage for you in the fact that my bank (and very possibly your bank) has cashed/cleared unsigned cheques, undated cheques, forward-dated cheques and cheques where the words and figures don't agree - and then denied that this was anything they needed to be concerned about! But these days, little careful scrutiny is given to many things ... by any of us
To be honest, i think the NIP's that on the police send out, the request for a signiture is quite obvious. Are the scamera ones any different in layout?
Not sure of the point you are making. We all forget to do things from time to time - has nobody ever had occasion to return something to you pointing out that you have not completed all of it? I've certainly received one or two documents back over the years!!!
One gets so forgetful with old age, you see .... I can be lying in bed on a Sunday morning, turn to her and say "what about it?" She'll say "you've had that ...."
And, d'you know, I can't remember ......
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