ABD vs Brake on BBC news

[Mr E]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3293611.stm

ABD make some decent points concerning road safety.

Brake spokeswomen responds with;
"The whole road safety community is extremely alarmed by the self-serving, selfish claptrap that comes out of these fringe individuals' mouths when they're talking about speed cameras."

and

"Mark McArthur-Christie is talking absolute nonsense and I would challenge him to say these words to Sarah Turner whose 12-year-old son was killed crossing the road outside his school."

Oh dear. So, a direct, fairly personal and unwarrented attack on the driver as a "minority", followed by an attempt to emote "won't someone think of the children" to divert the reader away from the real issue here.

*sigh*

Apologies if it's a repost.

[RichardD]

Mr E said:

[url] Oh dear. So, a direct, fairly personal and unwarrented attack on the driver as a "minority", followed by an attempt to emote "won't someone think of the children" to divert the reader away from the real issue here. *sigh* Apologies if it's a repost.

Yes, it is like these people have been programmed by the governments spin machine.

Thinking about the bigger picture like having less police about isn't allowed by the thought police.

We could all drive at 1mph to help things further? Shame that this may cause the economy to collapse since nothing will happen in the country any more. After the dust settles we can move back into caves and say "Ug" to one another.


>> Edited by RichardD on Friday 5th December 15:38

[deltaf]

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!

[regmolehusband]

ABD a "fringe organisation"? No more than Brake I'd say. Brake have a small number of staff but some large commercial vehicle fleet operators "supporting" them who do so purely for political and marketing reasons, and it is just the decision of one or two directors in these businesses who will strangely enough probably drive in similar to you and I. The money involved will almost certainly come out of the marketing or charitable donation budget. Transport 2000 is similar.

I wonder how many individuals choose to join Brake for example, I suspect very, very few.

We'll see just how "fringe" the ABD and Safespeed, to name just the two, are during the next year or two!

[chrisgr31]

Mr E said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3293611.stm Oh dear. So, a direct, fairly personal and unwarrented attack on the driver as a "minority", followed by an attempt to emote "won't someone think of the children" to divert the reader away from the real issue here.

And of course the ABD spokesman does say

"What we're suggesting is that driving slower in the right place is crucial to road safety.

It's idiotic for drivers to go haring through villages, haring past schools where very few of the cameras are. They're on straight A roads."

So therefore I suggest the ABD spokesman would be perfectly comfortable with talking to Sarah Turner.

[chrishillcoat]

E-mail your thoughts to [e-mail]

[RichardD]

chrishillcoat said:

E-mail your thoughts to [e-mail]

How about also writing letters to a couple of supermarkets (check out the brake website to find their supports) - telling them that you have stopped using them because of their association with this organisation!!

[Peter Ward]

Two great quotes from Brake:

"If you look at the speed camera sites where the casualties have been analysed there is a 36% reduction in casualties at those sites."

Note "...where the casualties have been analysed...". So does this mean there are lots of sites where the figures haven't been analysed? What would help someone to decide whether to analyse the figures for any particular site? Perhaps the level of casualties?

"It's ridiculous to look at the overall figure of road casualties because you've got all sorts of things such as drink-driving which affect casualty rates."

Many other things affect the number of casualties. So why concentrate on just one?

[Richard C]

RichardD said:

Yes, it is like these people have been programmed by the governments spin machine.

Regretably it is these same people who have and are programming the the governments spin machine.

[spaximus]

I heard this this morning and I have to say the ABD guy won hands down. The lady from brake lost every point and was quite agitated where as the ABD was calm and deliberate in his answers even when Mcnaughty chimed in he held it together well, it was her final insult to say "tell that to the mother" because she has lost the argument. Clearly the national press and the Rac Autocar ABD etc are a minority that they fear hence the Transport2000 day of action and renewed Speedkills mantra

[hornet]

Peter Ward said:

Two great quotes from Brake: "It's ridiculous to look at the overall figure of road casualties because you've got all sorts of things such as drink-driving which affect casualty rates." Many other things affect the number of casualties. So why concentrate on just one?

Classic, and hugely contradictory. There are indeed many factors causing road casualties, so could BRAKE please explain why they seem content to pursue (if you'll pardon the pun) speeding with such fanatical zeal? Also, does anyone have comparative membership numbers for BRAKE, T2000 and the ABD? Be interesting to see.

Also nice to see their spokesperson was unable to hold a rational debate for more than about 3 seconds without invoking emotional blackmail. Let's flip it round shall we, and apologies if this seems a touch heartless - would the parents of a child who ran out into the road without looking (and with seemingly no parental control or road safety education), and who was subsequently hit and killed by a motorist well within the "safe" speed limit, and who had absolutely no chance of avoiding the incident, like to talk face to face about the emotional damage done to said motorist by a) the accident itself (which was unavoidable from the motorist point of view) and b) this zealous anti car witchunt? Talking about motorists in the same breath as child killers is a good indication of quite how poor their argument is, not to mention extremely insulting.

Nobody in their right mind speeds anywhere near schools, and anyone that does so deserves everything they get, but BRAKE and others of their ilk don't seem to be able to get it into their lentil ravaged brains that we don't want the abolition of road safety, we want the abolition of this single issue Cromwellian crusade against motorists as the sole cause of everything. We want better (any?) road safety education from a pedestrian viewpoint, we want better quality roads - don't stick cameras at blackspots, discover WHY it's a blackspot and do something constructive about it (better road layout, signs, lighting etc). We want an end to this fleecing of car owners for every penny they have. We want a reasoned debate about road safety using genuine scietific investigation, free of political input and this constant blackmail from hysterical anti car pressure groups. We want viable public transport so we have a genuine CHOICE, not "re-education", bus lanes, green routes and traffic calming. If all organisations like BRAKE can come up with is the repeated Think of the Children wailing and gnashing of teeth, then they have nothing valid to add to the debate.

[JonRB]

I'm seldom moved to write letters or emails to the media, but on this occasion I couldn't refrain.

Here's what I've just sent to [e-mail]

Jon said:

Hello there I was very interested to read the article on the BBC website at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3293611.stm in which Mary Williams (your Chief Executive) and Mark McArthur-Christie, spokesman for the Association of British Drivers, were both quoted. As a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists, a father, and also as someone who continually seeks to improve the standard of my driving, I am quite frankly astonished by the reactionary response of Ms. Williams. Her personal and emotive attack on Mr. McArthur-Christie does nothing to make Brake look creditable in my opinion. It appears to me that the quotes attributed to Mr. McArthur-Christie come across as a well-reasoned argument for placing speed enforcement cameras at places where they can do the most good, like outside schools, rather than in places where revenue generation is maximised. I do not see how the views of Brake and the ABD differ in this respect. And yet Ms. Williams' response is (and I quote) "Mark McArthur-Christie is talking absolute nonsense and I would challenge him to say these words to Sarah Turner whose 12-year-old son was killed crossing the road outside his school." I would challenge Ms. Williams to enquire as to whether Sarah Turner would be happy for the tragic death of her son to be used as political ammunition against an organisation that is actively campaigning for speed cameras to be moved from locations such a dual carriageways where no pedestrian should be crossing to locations where pedestrian safety is paramount, such as outside schools. She should be ashamed. Kind regards etc.

[Mr E]

Good man.

[mybrainhurts]

Listen to interview here

www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today1_mcarthur-christie_20031205.ram

How did that hysterical woman get her OBE, MBE, PMS, or whatever??

[mybrainhurts]

RichardD said:

chrishillcoat said: E-mail your thoughts to [e-mail] How about also writing letters to a couple of supermarkets (check out the brake website to find their supports) - telling them that you have stopped using them because of their association with this organisation!!

For those who can't be bothered to visit BRAKE, here's their list of supporters.

Note that Greenflag helped develop Mary's website. I shall rattle off an email explaining why I shalln't be joining up!

Brake would like to say a big thank you to its corporate partners, without which our work to stop death and injury on roads and care for people affected by road crashes would not be possible.

Some of the corporate partners listed below have links to their websites - click on the company name to visit their website.

3M

Arriva

Avis Rent A Car Ltd

Autoglass

Autosonics

Bibby Distribution Ltd

Christian Salvesen

Direct Line

Driver Hire

Driving Services UK Ltd

Dunlop Tyres Ltd

Eddie Stobart

Exel Logistics - Europe

FedEx

Green Flag Motoring Assistance

Hays Logistics UK

Keymed Ltd

Lex Vehicle Leasing

MASS

Nationwide

Renault UK Ltd (to visit Renault's "Safety Matters" website for 3-10 year olds, click here)

Ryder Plc

Sainsbury's

Unipart Automotive

TDG

TNT Logistics

Volvo Truck and Bus Ltd

Wabco Automotive UK


Brake would also like to thank
Green Flag motoring assistance
for its help in developing this site.

Additional Supporters

Acuvue
Aon
Asda
Astra Zeneca
Auto Unique
Barker Gotelee Solicitors
Bass
Bearer Charity
Bowmonk
BSM
Business Lines
Delphi Lockheed
Department of Health
Disc-Lock Europe Ltd
DH Training Ltd
DTLR
Exel Foundation
Eurotunnel Freight
Fleet Week
Fleet Management
Grendonstar Distribution Ltd
Johnson & Johnson
Hampton KNight
Home Office
The Instructor College Ltd
Irwin Mitchell
ISUZU Truck
Iveco Ford
Lex Transfleet
March
NCP
Network Driver Training
OReilly Stewart Solicitors
Red Bull
RTITB Ltd
SCI (UK)
SpecSavers Optical Group
SITA
Transense Technologies plc
TWMPA Technology Ltd
United Utilities
United Freight Distribution
Universal Parking plc
VeMIS Ltd
Zurich Commercial

Affiliated Organisations

Automotive Distribution Federation
Brewery Transport Advisory Committee
British Sleep Foundation
British Vehicle Rental & Leasing Association
Child Accident Prevention Trust
Commercial Trailer Association
Community Transport Association
CTC
DIAmond Advanced Motorists
Disaster Aftercare Services
Driving Instructors Association
Driving Magazine
Fleet Driver Training Association
Garage Equipment Association
Guild of British Coach Operators
Institute of Advanced Motorists
Institute of Risk Management
Institute of Traffic Accident Investigators
Institution of Mechanical Engineers
Institution of Professionals, Managers amd Specialists
The Intensive Care Society
Learn + Live
Motor Accident Solicitors Society
Motor Cycle Industry Association
The Motor Schools Association of GB
National Tyre Distributors Association
Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety
Public and Commercial Services Union
Quest publications
Retail Motor Industry Association
Road Danger Reduction Forum
Road Operators Safety Council
Road Safety Markings Association
Society of Operations Engineers
The Slower Speeds Initiative
Transport and General Workers Union
Tyre Industry Council
University of Huddersfield

[ATG]

Heard the interview. She came across pretty badly. Two enormous self-contradictions. Don't think much of Naughty's moderation. He challenged very little that was coming from Break, but questioned the motivation of the ABD without giving their spokesman proper time to respond.

[puggit]

Notable Listees:

Arriva: Not a good week!
British Sleep Foundation: WHY?!
Asda, Sainsbury's: Won't go there again (shop at Tesco's anyway).

Looking through the list I'm happy to say I don't knowingly frequent any of them!

[Mr E]

Damn. I shop at Asda, and I have a pair of glasses from specsavers....

[Richard C]

JonRB, I hope you don't mind my borrowing a few bits of your letter but I looked at mybrainhurts list and find that 8 of these corporate supporters are suppliers to my company . I have sent them emails on these lines

Dear Sirs

Fringe pressure groups

I am managing director of ........... Ltd,( <website url> SME’s whose employees including myself frequently hire ...... cars in the course of business travel in UK and overseas.

I was very interested to read the article on the BBC website at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3293611.stm in which Mary Williams Chief Executive of Brake and Mark McArthur-Christie, spokesman for the Association of British Drivers, were both quoted.

As an experienced driver or nearly 1 million accident free miles, a father, and also as someone who continually seeks to improve the standard of my driving, I was astonished by the reactionary response of Ms. Williams. Her personal and emotive attack on Mr. McArthur-Christie does nothing to make Brake look credible.

I note that Brake claim that they receive corporate support from yourselves. It would seem that they are a vociferous but single issue anti-motoring pressure group who if anything are hindering the real cause of improving road safety. I should be interested to hear of your justifications for your companies continued support of Brake as this will influence our continued preference for ..... as a car rental supplier.

Yours sincerely


I think that if a other people who thought the same way did this it might result in some of these corporate names, encouraged by the new anti-scamera backlash in the press asking themselves if continuing to be associated with Brake and others is really going to be a good thing. No doubt their marketing departments were originally badgered into 'Thinking of the children' by this same harridan.