Magistrates Courts jurisdiction -any PH Lawyers about?
Discussion
Quick question for any PH lawyers milling about, i have been in touch with the ministry of justice and the courts but keep getting the runaround, i was under the impression that magistrates courts only had jurisdiction up to £5000? i am in the process of fighting a liability order for £20,000 which is being heard in the magistrates court- is this lawfull? I also have a case of ip theft for which i was instantly refered to county court so i am confused to say the least, your help is gratefully requested
thank you in advance
Paul
thank you in advance
Paul
See here
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/index.htm
Magistrates Court mostly criminal (+ liquor licensing etc); County Court is civil.
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/index.htm
Magistrates Court mostly criminal (+ liquor licensing etc); County Court is civil.
thanks, i have searched that website and spent most of my day being bounced around, i have spoken to 3 different people at the mministry of justice none of whom can answer my question and am at a loss as to whom i should ask next!!
The people i have spoken to cannot even tell me if i have a right to a judge and jury in this matter( a basic human right i thought), this country is a joke, if they don't know how am i supposed to find out!, im getting desperate to know what is going on
The people i have spoken to cannot even tell me if i have a right to a judge and jury in this matter( a basic human right i thought), this country is a joke, if they don't know how am i supposed to find out!, im getting desperate to know what is going on
twistedsanity said:
thanks, i have searched that website and spent most of my day being bounced around, i have spoken to 3 different people at the mministry of justice none of whom can answer my question and am at a loss as to whom i should ask next!!
The people i have spoken to cannot even tell me if i have a right to a judge and jury in this matter( a basic human right i thought), this country is a joke, if they don't know how am i supposed to find out!, im getting desperate to know what is going on
Isn't the right to trial by jury limited to criminal cases? And all criminal stuff has to be passed in front of a magistrate to be committed to a higher court if necessary, even murder trials start off at a mags court.The people i have spoken to cannot even tell me if i have a right to a judge and jury in this matter( a basic human right i thought), this country is a joke, if they don't know how am i supposed to find out!, im getting desperate to know what is going on
This seems to suggest all liability orders are processed by magistrates and are a simple case of proving if a debt exists or not, so how would a jury trial be relevant? http://www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/counciltax.ht...
because there is some kind of act whereby a magistrates court cannot ask the csa to justify the amount being claimed,(hence the use of magistrates) the csa are a registered company and therefore trading for profit, if they dont have to justify the amount then i am effectively being mugged. I thought that we all had a basic right to a jury of our peers if we were accused of anything in court, how can i defend myself?
twistedsanity said:
because there is some kind of act whereby a magistrates court cannot ask the csa to justify the amount being claimed,(hence the use of magistrates) the csa are a registered company and therefore trading for profit, if they dont have to justify the amount then i am effectively being mugged. I thought that we all had a basic right to a jury of our peers if we were accused of anything in court, how can i defend myself?
If it's CSA, you need to consult a family lawyer.twistedsanity said:
because there is some kind of act whereby a magistrates court cannot ask the csa to justify the amount being claimed,(hence the use of magistrates) the csa are a registered company and therefore trading for profit, if they dont have to justify the amount then i am effectively being mugged. I thought that we all had a basic right to a jury of our peers if we were accused of anything in court, how can i defend myself?
Are you being pursued by the CSA in a civil action to recover monies and, if this is the case, have you committed a criminal offence and are facing prosecution? In other words, have you received a summons charging you with an offence?I would have thought in that instance that the Magistrates would be the correct forum.
As others have said, typically you're looking at the County Court for civil claims, although this can confuse people as they are often in the same building as Magistrates or Crown Courts.
twistedsanity said:
i have a copy of some paperwork titled "summons to defendant" , there is no court stamp or logo on it, it refers to the child support act, no law is mentioned anywhere, i don't believe an act is a law or constitutes a criminal offence?
An Act is a law. Acting contrary to an Act often constitutes a criminal offence.We only have the scant details you've given us so far, but my hunch is you're being chased for back payments by the CSA and they're taking you to court for non-payment in a similar way to a Local Authority prosecuting you for not paying your Council Tax.
I may be wrong, but if I were you I'd be seeking legal advice from a family law familiar solicitor ASAP.
The Magistrates' Courts do not only deal with allegations of criminal conduct. They also deal with some types of debt collection work where the creditor is an arm of the state. The £5,000 limit that you refer to is not a jurisdiction limit but rather is the maximum fine the Magistrates' Courts can usually (not always) impose following a guilty plea to or conviction of a crminal charge.
Liability Orders are an example of the debt collection done in the Magistrates' Courts. Usually these relate to arrears of Council Tax; here I assume they relate to arrears of Child Support payments or the fees incurred by the CSA in pursuing a feckless absent parent for Child Support payments. A Liability Order is not a fine and nor does it follow a guilty plea or conviction in a criminal matter and so the £5,000 general maximum fine is irrelevant.
You will find that the making of a Liability Order is a mere precursor to further enforcement action. You will deal with your predicament much more successfully if you pay a specialist lawyer for advice rather than seek it on PistonHeads. The fact that you have not yet engaged with the CSA (or whomsoever has obtained a Liability Order against you) despite no doubt receiving endless warnings will make things more difficult for you but not impossible. Of course, if you plainly and simply owe the money then that is another matter.
The IP matter is a plain jane civil dispute between private individuals over which the County Court--or the High Court if it is high value--has jurisdiction. Although you characterise it as "theft" it more likely concerns an infringement of your IP rights by a private individual rather than theft properly so-called. Were it to be theft, the individual in question might be prosecuted by the state (not by you) and that prosecution would start (and probably finish) in the Magistrates' Courts. The fact that you value your claim at over £5,000 is irrelevant: had you valued it at less than £5,000 you would still be in the County Court. What counts is that it is a civil claim between private individuals.
Liability Orders are an example of the debt collection done in the Magistrates' Courts. Usually these relate to arrears of Council Tax; here I assume they relate to arrears of Child Support payments or the fees incurred by the CSA in pursuing a feckless absent parent for Child Support payments. A Liability Order is not a fine and nor does it follow a guilty plea or conviction in a criminal matter and so the £5,000 general maximum fine is irrelevant.
You will find that the making of a Liability Order is a mere precursor to further enforcement action. You will deal with your predicament much more successfully if you pay a specialist lawyer for advice rather than seek it on PistonHeads. The fact that you have not yet engaged with the CSA (or whomsoever has obtained a Liability Order against you) despite no doubt receiving endless warnings will make things more difficult for you but not impossible. Of course, if you plainly and simply owe the money then that is another matter.
The IP matter is a plain jane civil dispute between private individuals over which the County Court--or the High Court if it is high value--has jurisdiction. Although you characterise it as "theft" it more likely concerns an infringement of your IP rights by a private individual rather than theft properly so-called. Were it to be theft, the individual in question might be prosecuted by the state (not by you) and that prosecution would start (and probably finish) in the Magistrates' Courts. The fact that you value your claim at over £5,000 is irrelevant: had you valued it at less than £5,000 you would still be in the County Court. What counts is that it is a civil claim between private individuals.
Edited by r129sl on Tuesday 7th July 10:17
thanks for the reply, i have engaged with the csa on many occasions, i am permanently disabled and in reciept of non means tested benefits and have been for many years, im not likely to be going back to work as i have a multitude of health problems and my condition has "no surgical procedure" due to the amount of damage, this is the opinion of more than one surgeon at the RNOH, i have no assets or savings either and the csa have admitted that it would be illegal for them to accept any payments from my dla/incap benefit, so in effect they are not gaining anything other than robbing any future inheritance my children may have if my wife dies before me, the home we live in belongs to her as she is the only one capable of working and is in her sole name, im disurbed that the csa can get such orders enforced and the magistrates can not even question the legitimacy of there claim, this is not a situation that only applies to me, many fathers have been victimised this way and lost there homes, to date 61 fathers have comitted suicide after the csa has effectivly mugged them of there belongings im shocked that the courts can pass judgement with no proof and no real crime being commited, do we have any rights left at all?
Don't think that the Magistrates enjoy siting in CSA courts either!
The only way a liability order can be refused is if there are sufficient grounds to prove that the calculation has been incorrect. This does not mean the actual sum that they say you owe but the way they have added it up.
If they prove that you owe any sum whatsoever from the period being cited then the bench will sign the order and you only have leave to appeal.
I have seen orders for over 50K so the amount is irrelevant.
Have even seen an order that was to deduct 40% of net wages as they have recently reviewed the period needed to pay back arrears.
CSA Complete b
ds!
The only way a liability order can be refused is if there are sufficient grounds to prove that the calculation has been incorrect. This does not mean the actual sum that they say you owe but the way they have added it up.
If they prove that you owe any sum whatsoever from the period being cited then the bench will sign the order and you only have leave to appeal.
I have seen orders for over 50K so the amount is irrelevant.
Have even seen an order that was to deduct 40% of net wages as they have recently reviewed the period needed to pay back arrears.
CSA Complete b
ds!the criteria of the Act Section 33 (3) "Where the Department applies for a liability order, the court of summary jurisdiction shall make the order if satisfied that the payments in question have become payable by the liable person and have not been paid."
And as we all know the court is not going to listen hence:
(4) On an application under paragraph (2), the court shall not question the maintenance assessment under which the payments of child support maintenance fell to be made.
the court cannot question the csa- Justice? what a joke
And as we all know the court is not going to listen hence:
(4) On an application under paragraph (2), the court shall not question the maintenance assessment under which the payments of child support maintenance fell to be made.
the court cannot question the csa- Justice? what a joke
twistedsanity said:
the criteria of the Act Section 33 (3) "Where the Department applies for a liability order, the court of summary jurisdiction shall make the order if satisfied that the payments in question have become payable by the liable person and have not been paid."
And as we all know the court is not going to listen hence:
(4) On an application under paragraph (2), the court shall not question the maintenance assessment under which the payments of child support maintenance fell to be made.
the court cannot question the csa- Justice? what a joke
Magistrates have neither enough time or qualifications to do the job of the CSA and re-appraise how much you should pay. That is why there is a specialist agency to do that (however awful they are at their job).And as we all know the court is not going to listen hence:
(4) On an application under paragraph (2), the court shall not question the maintenance assessment under which the payments of child support maintenance fell to be made.
the court cannot question the csa- Justice? what a joke
All the Magistrate is there to do in this instance is provide a pathway towards an Offence so further sanctions can be applied 'fairly' later on- very much in the same vein as an ASBO.
r129sl said:
The Magistrates' Courts do not only deal with allegations of criminal conduct. They also deal with some types of debt collection work where the creditor is an arm of the state. The £5,000 limit that you refer to is not a jurisdiction limit but rather is the maximum fine the Magistrates' Courts can usually (not always) impose following a guilty plea to or conviction of a crminal charge.
Liability Orders are an example of the debt collection done in the Magistrates' Courts. Usually these relate to arrears of Council Tax; here I assume they relate to arrears of Child Support payments or the fees incurred by the CSA in pursuing a feckless absent parent for Child Support payments. A Liability Order is not a fine and nor does it follow a guilty plea or conviction in a criminal matter and so the £5,000 general maximum fine is irrelevant.
You will find that the making of a Liability Order is a mere precursor to further enforcement action. You will deal with your predicament much more successfully if you pay a specialist lawyer for advice rather than seek it on PistonHeads. The fact that you have not yet engaged with the CSA (or whomsoever has obtained a Liability Order against you) despite no doubt receiving endless warnings will make things more difficult for you but not impossible. Of course, if you plainly and simply owe the money then that is another matter.
The IP matter is a plain jane civil dispute between private individuals over which the County Court--or the High Court if it is high value--has jurisdiction. Although you characterise it as "theft" it more likely concerns an infringement of your IP rights by a private individual rather than theft properly so-called. Were it to be theft, the individual in question might be prosecuted by the state (not by you) and that prosecution would start (and probably finish) in the Magistrates' Courts. The fact that you value your claim at over £5,000 is irrelevant: had you valued it at less than £5,000 you would still be in the County Court. What counts is that it is a civil claim between private individuals.
Liability Orders are an example of the debt collection done in the Magistrates' Courts. Usually these relate to arrears of Council Tax; here I assume they relate to arrears of Child Support payments or the fees incurred by the CSA in pursuing a feckless absent parent for Child Support payments. A Liability Order is not a fine and nor does it follow a guilty plea or conviction in a criminal matter and so the £5,000 general maximum fine is irrelevant.
You will find that the making of a Liability Order is a mere precursor to further enforcement action. You will deal with your predicament much more successfully if you pay a specialist lawyer for advice rather than seek it on PistonHeads. The fact that you have not yet engaged with the CSA (or whomsoever has obtained a Liability Order against you) despite no doubt receiving endless warnings will make things more difficult for you but not impossible. Of course, if you plainly and simply owe the money then that is another matter.
The IP matter is a plain jane civil dispute between private individuals over which the County Court--or the High Court if it is high value--has jurisdiction. Although you characterise it as "theft" it more likely concerns an infringement of your IP rights by a private individual rather than theft properly so-called. Were it to be theft, the individual in question might be prosecuted by the state (not by you) and that prosecution would start (and probably finish) in the Magistrates' Courts. The fact that you value your claim at over £5,000 is irrelevant: had you valued it at less than £5,000 you would still be in the County Court. What counts is that it is a civil claim between private individuals.
Edited by r129sl on Tuesday 7th July 10:17
sound adviceETA and remember that if (when) it comes to enforcement in the county court, that court have no jurisdiction to go behind the finding of a magistrates court liability order. They will most likely seek to get a charge against your property if you have one, and potentially make an application for an order for sale based upon that charging order if you are not taking steps to pay off sums which are due.
Edited by soprano on Tuesday 7th July 15:55
Edited by soprano on Tuesday 7th July 15:55
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff