What if a speed camera flashes you twice ...
Discussion
... in an area in which the speed limit is far from clear, then you get home and check your MOT and find out it expired a month ago?
I was flashed this afternoon on The Highway, along the Embankment in London. I thought it was a 40 limit, and was doing 40, but it flashed me. There were no signs (I have been back and re-driven the route) and it may (may!) be a 30.
I got home and checked my documents. All fine, but the MOT ran out last month.
Questions are, what are the odds of this coming up to bite me? I understand that alot of camera flashes come to nothing as the cameras don't have film in them. If it DOES come to a letter in the post, will I have to show my (out-of-date) MOT to anyone? Is it worth busting a gut to get an MOT tomorrow (the car will pass, it's getting to a garage in time)?
Also, what EXACTLY are the rules on this sort of thing? Do they have to have the NIP with me within 2 weeks, or do they simply have to be able to prove that they signed it and posted it within 10 working days?
Any help very gratefully recieved. (Clean licence for 11 years - first time this has happened to me.) If there is any useful advice, I would be happy to hear it too ....
Oli.
I was flashed this afternoon on The Highway, along the Embankment in London. I thought it was a 40 limit, and was doing 40, but it flashed me. There were no signs (I have been back and re-driven the route) and it may (may!) be a 30.
I got home and checked my documents. All fine, but the MOT ran out last month.
Questions are, what are the odds of this coming up to bite me? I understand that alot of camera flashes come to nothing as the cameras don't have film in them. If it DOES come to a letter in the post, will I have to show my (out-of-date) MOT to anyone? Is it worth busting a gut to get an MOT tomorrow (the car will pass, it's getting to a garage in time)?
Also, what EXACTLY are the rules on this sort of thing? Do they have to have the NIP with me within 2 weeks, or do they simply have to be able to prove that they signed it and posted it within 10 working days?
Any help very gratefully recieved. (Clean licence for 11 years - first time this has happened to me.) If there is any useful advice, I would be happy to hear it too ....
Oli.
Oli
Only you know what limit there was where the flash occured and what speed you were doing.
Now you sweat for 14 clear days from the incident. If you are the registered keeper and no note (Notice of Intended Prosecution) in the post then sweat over as they cannot take proceedings. If not the reg. keeper then NIP has to get to him by 14 days and then they can play with you.
Re MOT - FPT by camera does not require production of documents so on that score you can breath a sigh of relief. But it would be advisable to get it MOT asap.
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Sunday 14th December 17:45
Only you know what limit there was where the flash occured and what speed you were doing.
Now you sweat for 14 clear days from the incident. If you are the registered keeper and no note (Notice of Intended Prosecution) in the post then sweat over as they cannot take proceedings. If not the reg. keeper then NIP has to get to him by 14 days and then they can play with you.
Re MOT - FPT by camera does not require production of documents so on that score you can breath a sigh of relief. But it would be advisable to get it MOT asap.
DVD
>> Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Sunday 14th December 17:45
Guys,
This is the second time on this website - the first was when I posted my question - and I am already grateful to you for the answers you have posted. Thanks. (I have also noticed that when I write a response I can't see the other posts, unlike on other forums I have seen, so can't thank people by name as I didn't note them!)
It looks like I am in for a 2-week sweat. Interrupted by Christmas. I am hoping (hoping ...) that the local admin office will all be on holiday/Christmas booze-ups, and will get behind with their ticketing, and therefore will miss their magic 14-day limit. Does the NIP have to arrive with me within a given time limit, or can it just be signed and sent by them within this limit?
Very heartened by the message (DwightVanDriver?) that they don't ask for MOT's. Yes, I was a bad lad for not having one, and the car won't be used on the road again until next weekend, when I will go to my local MOT place to have it done. Thanks for this Dwight.
I know that I was doing 40 - on the nail. (I actually saw the camera, thought "What's the limit? 40" and slowed to 40.) I was then flashed, and had an attack of the brown trousers and re-drove the route to see what the signs said (they didn't say anything - there weren't any.) If I am done for speeding, is it worth kicking up a fuss about this? Can I be expected to adhere to a speed limit which is not obviously signed? And when I say "Not Obviously", I re-drove the route specifically looking for signs and there were none at all. For what it's worth, it was from Commercial Union Square in the City of London, to Bow in the East End, along The Highway - just east of Tower Hill.
Thanks again for your help.
Oli.
This is the second time on this website - the first was when I posted my question - and I am already grateful to you for the answers you have posted. Thanks. (I have also noticed that when I write a response I can't see the other posts, unlike on other forums I have seen, so can't thank people by name as I didn't note them!)
It looks like I am in for a 2-week sweat. Interrupted by Christmas. I am hoping (hoping ...) that the local admin office will all be on holiday/Christmas booze-ups, and will get behind with their ticketing, and therefore will miss their magic 14-day limit. Does the NIP have to arrive with me within a given time limit, or can it just be signed and sent by them within this limit?
Very heartened by the message (DwightVanDriver?) that they don't ask for MOT's. Yes, I was a bad lad for not having one, and the car won't be used on the road again until next weekend, when I will go to my local MOT place to have it done. Thanks for this Dwight.
I know that I was doing 40 - on the nail. (I actually saw the camera, thought "What's the limit? 40" and slowed to 40.) I was then flashed, and had an attack of the brown trousers and re-drove the route to see what the signs said (they didn't say anything - there weren't any.) If I am done for speeding, is it worth kicking up a fuss about this? Can I be expected to adhere to a speed limit which is not obviously signed? And when I say "Not Obviously", I re-drove the route specifically looking for signs and there were none at all. For what it's worth, it was from Commercial Union Square in the City of London, to Bow in the East End, along The Highway - just east of Tower Hill.
Thanks again for your help.
Oli.
NickD -
You obviously know the road, but it's a dual carriageway (as in, there are two lanes going in each direction.) There are no signs showing that there is a speed limit, and there are precious few streetlamps (I don't think they are within the specified intervals which would dictate that it is a 30mph limit.) There are large signs as you enter the Linehouse Link tunnel, which means "You are entering a 30mph limit area." I would take the implication of this as being "You are entering a 30mph limit area, and leaving an area which is other than a 30mph limit."
While I am not doubting you in that it is a 30mph area (my experience would suggest that you are quite accurate) I would claim it is badly signed.
Yes, there are two cameras between Tower Bridge and the Limehouse Link, and the LL itself has time-measuring cameras between the entrance and the exit.
Oli.
>> Edited by zcacogp on Monday 15th December 12:46
You obviously know the road, but it's a dual carriageway (as in, there are two lanes going in each direction.) There are no signs showing that there is a speed limit, and there are precious few streetlamps (I don't think they are within the specified intervals which would dictate that it is a 30mph limit.) There are large signs as you enter the Linehouse Link tunnel, which means "You are entering a 30mph limit area." I would take the implication of this as being "You are entering a 30mph limit area, and leaving an area which is other than a 30mph limit."
While I am not doubting you in that it is a 30mph area (my experience would suggest that you are quite accurate) I would claim it is badly signed.
Yes, there are two cameras between Tower Bridge and the Limehouse Link, and the LL itself has time-measuring cameras between the entrance and the exit.
Oli.
>> Edited by zcacogp on Monday 15th December 12:46
Sorry to tell you this but no signs means 30 if it's got streetlighting...
...not familiar with the bit of road in question though!
CH
edited to say: obviously typing at the same time as zcacogp!!!
>> Edited by Dr Bob on Monday 15th December 12:46
>> Edited by Dr Bob on Monday 15th December 12:46
...not familiar with the bit of road in question though!
CH
edited to say: obviously typing at the same time as zcacogp!!!
>> Edited by Dr Bob on Monday 15th December 12:46
>> Edited by Dr Bob on Monday 15th December 12:46
Oli, I do not know the proportion but can give you an accurate picture of the potential proceedings. The NIP must be posted to the registered keeper by at least first class post within 14 days (15 counting the day of the offence). Your offence was on Sunday 14th, therefore if they do send a NIP the postmark on the envelope must be for any day up to, and including, the 28th. If it is dated after this date you will have a defence of it being 'out of time'.
You may get lucky with it being Christmas, the dates are calendar, not working.
You may get lucky with it being Christmas, the dates are calendar, not working.
Kevin,
I was hoping that Christmas may happen in my favour. It was the working/calender day thing that I was unclear about. Thanks for shedding some light.
Proportion - various websites (not sure about the reliability) suggest a ratio of about 7 flashes per "Catching". Although this sounds optomistically high (can anyone vouch for this, either way?)
I guess all I can do is wait with bated breath until the end of the year, and hope that there is nothing by then. (Unfortunately I am going away from about the 24th to the 2nd, so it may well arrive while I am away ... )
Oli.
I was hoping that Christmas may happen in my favour. It was the working/calender day thing that I was unclear about. Thanks for shedding some light.
Proportion - various websites (not sure about the reliability) suggest a ratio of about 7 flashes per "Catching". Although this sounds optomistically high (can anyone vouch for this, either way?)
I guess all I can do is wait with bated breath until the end of the year, and hope that there is nothing by then. (Unfortunately I am going away from about the 24th to the 2nd, so it may well arrive while I am away ... )
Oli.
... sorry, more.
Is it possible to put myself out of my misery early - is it possible to contact the office which deals with the camera in question and ask whether there have been any photos taken which I should be aware of? Is it possible to do find out which office I should contact (presumably it is a police station) and would they release these details if I asked them, and if I was to ask them then would it be incriminating myself to do so? And would the answer be reliable?
Lots of questions ...
Oli.
Is it possible to put myself out of my misery early - is it possible to contact the office which deals with the camera in question and ask whether there have been any photos taken which I should be aware of? Is it possible to do find out which office I should contact (presumably it is a police station) and would they release these details if I asked them, and if I was to ask them then would it be incriminating myself to do so? And would the answer be reliable?
Lots of questions ...
Oli.
IMHO you just wait and see, no point in highlighting the fact you thought you may have been speeding. If you are the registered keeper you will receive a NIP by the 30th, not great for Christmas festivities but bearing in mind Christmas and the weekend takes care of a lot of days they would need to have processed it by the 23rd to stand any chance of getting it done in time, it must be postmarked by the end of the 28th, no post available on 25/26/27/28, maybe not 24th either, so fingers crossed for you!
Kevin,
Thanks.
If anyone here is also a member of ClubGTi and is watching their forums, you will see that I also have a similar thread there ...
... and one of their chaps drives past the camera in question on a daily basis. He has confirmed that the camera is emptied of film regularly - he believes it is Friday mornings. Which raises two other questions.
1. If it has fresh film in on Friday morning, what are the odds that this film has run out by Sunday lunchtime? (Am I right in understanding that Gatso's have 360 exposure film, which means thay can record 180 offences - 2 exposures per offence?) This would equate to the machine recording 3.75 offences per hour in this 48 hour period. Not ridiculous (it is a busy road), but a bit on the high side.
2. If they empty it on Friday 19th, will they have processed the film and produced and posted the NIP by the 23rd? (Kevin, quite agree with your maths - here's hoping they don't do anything much between Christmas and New Year.)
3. Or, do confound it all, do they empty the Gatso more than once a week?
All in all, it will somewhat spoil my Christmas fun, and I will have chewed all my fingernails away by the time New Year turns up!
Oli.
Thanks.
If anyone here is also a member of ClubGTi and is watching their forums, you will see that I also have a similar thread there ...
... and one of their chaps drives past the camera in question on a daily basis. He has confirmed that the camera is emptied of film regularly - he believes it is Friday mornings. Which raises two other questions.
1. If it has fresh film in on Friday morning, what are the odds that this film has run out by Sunday lunchtime? (Am I right in understanding that Gatso's have 360 exposure film, which means thay can record 180 offences - 2 exposures per offence?) This would equate to the machine recording 3.75 offences per hour in this 48 hour period. Not ridiculous (it is a busy road), but a bit on the high side.
2. If they empty it on Friday 19th, will they have processed the film and produced and posted the NIP by the 23rd? (Kevin, quite agree with your maths - here's hoping they don't do anything much between Christmas and New Year.)
3. Or, do confound it all, do they empty the Gatso more than once a week?
All in all, it will somewhat spoil my Christmas fun, and I will have chewed all my fingernails away by the time New Year turns up!
Oli.
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