Neither Plod nor speeding but...
Discussion
... in terms of 'Let's whip the motorist some more', this is probably the best place. Radio 4 this morning reports moves to place cameras on yellow gridded junctions. If you block one, deliberately or inadvertently, you get fined £100. The Council will operate the system and get to keep the fines.
What we will do as the window of legal acceptability betwen going and stopping narrows to an indefinable slit?
What we will do as the window of legal acceptability betwen going and stopping narrows to an indefinable slit?
Well, actually I'm greatly in favour of 'yellow box junctions' - properly sited of course. They are intended to maintain throughways to enable traffic to move. I see so many where motorists are either totally ignorant of their purpose or deliberately choose to impede their fellow motorists.
IIRC, the rule is that you can only enter a YBJ if your straight-ahead exit is not blocked, or if you are turning right and you are only blocked by oncoming traffic.
AsI have posted elsewhere, there are some silly sitings of YBJs - for example, on the A31 Farnham bypass there is a YBJ across the Alton bound carriageway (only) at the Hinkley's Corner traffic lights. This is intended to preserve the flow of traffic West-bpound along the A31 when the crossing gates are closed at Farnham Railway Station. This is a sensible measure, because otherwise at peak times, traffic on the A31 would be unable to proceed. The problem is that there are no signs to indicate the presence of the junction (other than its painting on the road) and traffic coming out of Farnham cannot see the YBJ as it is painted on the far side of an incline. I have seen several vehicles trapped in the centre between traffic flowing at 50-70mph because of the lack of signage.
I have also commented elsewhere about the apparent illiteracy of many motorists and have taken to passing Adult Literacy brochures to those who stop across painted signs that read, "KEEP CLEAR" - preserving a throughway for traffic emerging from a junction for example ... and making a quick get-away
.
Streaky
IIRC, the rule is that you can only enter a YBJ if your straight-ahead exit is not blocked, or if you are turning right and you are only blocked by oncoming traffic.
AsI have posted elsewhere, there are some silly sitings of YBJs - for example, on the A31 Farnham bypass there is a YBJ across the Alton bound carriageway (only) at the Hinkley's Corner traffic lights. This is intended to preserve the flow of traffic West-bpound along the A31 when the crossing gates are closed at Farnham Railway Station. This is a sensible measure, because otherwise at peak times, traffic on the A31 would be unable to proceed. The problem is that there are no signs to indicate the presence of the junction (other than its painting on the road) and traffic coming out of Farnham cannot see the YBJ as it is painted on the far side of an incline. I have seen several vehicles trapped in the centre between traffic flowing at 50-70mph because of the lack of signage.
I have also commented elsewhere about the apparent illiteracy of many motorists and have taken to passing Adult Literacy brochures to those who stop across painted signs that read, "KEEP CLEAR" - preserving a throughway for traffic emerging from a junction for example ... and making a quick get-away
. Streaky
In principle, it;s a good idea that I have to say that I'm in favour of. However, I can see countless problems with the system unless properly implemented, you see there are certain situations where the camera will catch the wrong person, this has happend to me a couple of times...
I'm at a yellow box junction on a dual carriage way sitting in the left lane waiting to cross, the lights are on green, but there's no room for me yet. The car ahead of me on the otherside of the junction moves slowly forward, leaving space for one car, I start to drive across towards the availble gap, MY gap!
Now before I started moving, there was a car in the right hand lane, sitting illegally in the yellow box junction, unable to get across because his path is blocked. When the car ahead of me, in the left lane, moves forward, this guy in the right hand lane, seeing his opportunity, moves across from his lane and into mine and manages to get out of the yellow box.
Anyway, obviously at this point, I have no exit and the car behind me has already pulled up (so I'm unable to reverswe) and I am now stuck in the yellow box with nowhere to go because of the selfish acts of the guy in the right lane.
And now I would have a £100 fine to pay
I'm at a yellow box junction on a dual carriage way sitting in the left lane waiting to cross, the lights are on green, but there's no room for me yet. The car ahead of me on the otherside of the junction moves slowly forward, leaving space for one car, I start to drive across towards the availble gap, MY gap!
Now before I started moving, there was a car in the right hand lane, sitting illegally in the yellow box junction, unable to get across because his path is blocked. When the car ahead of me, in the left lane, moves forward, this guy in the right hand lane, seeing his opportunity, moves across from his lane and into mine and manages to get out of the yellow box.
Anyway, obviously at this point, I have no exit and the car behind me has already pulled up (so I'm unable to reverswe) and I am now stuck in the yellow box with nowhere to go because of the selfish acts of the guy in the right lane.
And now I would have a £100 fine to pay
simpo two said:
... in terms of 'Let's whip the motorist some more', this is probably the best place. Radio 4 this morning reports moves to place cameras on yellow gridded junctions. If you block one, deliberately or inadvertently, you get fined £100. The Council will operate the system and get to keep the fines.
What we will do as the window of legal acceptability betwen going and stopping narrows to an indefinable slit?
Im beginin to think of sellling the car and going back to bikes with apocket full of stick on numbers.
What's the law regarding yellow box junctions if they're broken or just old and faded? Do they have to be complete in the same way that double yellows have to be?
In theory, no right turn enforcement is a good idea, but we all know what will happen don't we - councils will suddenly start introducing new no right turn restrictions left, right and centre.
I don't like the idea of councils taking over enforcement either - look at the shambles they've made of parking. Wardens issuing tickets when they know full well they shouldn't, ticketing emergency vehicles and all that sort of stuff.
In theory, no right turn enforcement is a good idea, but we all know what will happen don't we - councils will suddenly start introducing new no right turn restrictions left, right and centre.
I don't like the idea of councils taking over enforcement either - look at the shambles they've made of parking. Wardens issuing tickets when they know full well they shouldn't, ticketing emergency vehicles and all that sort of stuff.
While I can see the possibility of being caught ou unjustly, yellow box sitters need to be dealt with. London is just full of morons who clearly have no clue what the interesting yellow noughts and crosses board on the road is there for. Some of the worst offenders (in many other areas too) are bus drivers. These tossers frequently block junctions for two cycles of the lights.
That's my point - I don't want to see junctions blocked any more than anyone else - it's the 'enforcement' method (such a popular word these days, you notice) that pisses me off.
What a pity they can't spend their 'enforcement' money on real criminals. Too hard I guess (witness North Wales' crime clear-up figures)
What a pity they can't spend their 'enforcement' money on real criminals. Too hard I guess (witness North Wales' crime clear-up figures)
Humm; seems to me that using cameras to 'enforce' static restrictions such as YBJs and red traffic lights is a much more efficient method than having BiBs standing there. It frees BiBs to investigate crime and TrafPol to pull over the real idiots on our roads. Using cameras to 'enforce' sensible speed restrictions (eg. outside primary/junior schools) and at genuine accident blackspots (ie. not just designated as a result of distorted KSIs) where road improvements cannot easily be made is also (IMHO) sensible and efficient.
But the key is sensible speed limits, say: 15mph past primary/junior schools at set-down and pick-up times only (or when lights flash); 20mph in many urban (ie. so-called 'side roads' and estates) environments (which would exclude almost all 'A' roads and some 'B' roads); 30-40 mph on A roads in currently so-called 'built-up areas'; 80-90mph on dual-carriageways in rural environments or where barriers are provided, 90-110mph on motorways - with a 20mph automatic reduction in adverse driving conditions (eg. rain - as in France). Oh, and minimum speed limits on motorways and major trunk roads (where dualled).
We can argue the actual limits, and I wouldn't fight to the death to make the generalisations I put forward above the upper figures.
Add to this: proper design; good barriering; restoration of sight-lines; introduction of overtaking in all lanes on motorways (only); introduction of 'turn left on red' filtering (reverse of USA but applying the same general principles); introduction of flashing amber on many traffic signals during low traffic volumes conditions (typically at night); elimination of many traffic signals at roundabouts (enabling the roundabout to act as designed); return to 'peak-time only' traffic signals at roundabouts where signals are required at peak times; more YBJs,; better road signing; ... and better education for motorists, pedestrians and (local) government officials and elected representatives. Oh, and the elimination (not necessarily literally, but we can discuss it) of the "speed kills" fixated Chief Constables.
Streaky
(Now taking cover in disused nuclear bunker)
>> Edited by streaky on Sunday 4th January 23:09
But the key is sensible speed limits, say: 15mph past primary/junior schools at set-down and pick-up times only (or when lights flash); 20mph in many urban (ie. so-called 'side roads' and estates) environments (which would exclude almost all 'A' roads and some 'B' roads); 30-40 mph on A roads in currently so-called 'built-up areas'; 80-90mph on dual-carriageways in rural environments or where barriers are provided, 90-110mph on motorways - with a 20mph automatic reduction in adverse driving conditions (eg. rain - as in France). Oh, and minimum speed limits on motorways and major trunk roads (where dualled).
We can argue the actual limits, and I wouldn't fight to the death to make the generalisations I put forward above the upper figures.
Add to this: proper design; good barriering; restoration of sight-lines; introduction of overtaking in all lanes on motorways (only); introduction of 'turn left on red' filtering (reverse of USA but applying the same general principles); introduction of flashing amber on many traffic signals during low traffic volumes conditions (typically at night); elimination of many traffic signals at roundabouts (enabling the roundabout to act as designed); return to 'peak-time only' traffic signals at roundabouts where signals are required at peak times; more YBJs,; better road signing; ... and better education for motorists, pedestrians and (local) government officials and elected representatives. Oh, and the elimination (not necessarily literally, but we can discuss it
) of the "speed kills" fixated Chief Constables. Streaky
(Now taking cover in disused nuclear bunker)
>> Edited by streaky on Sunday 4th January 23:09
. They are actually talking about a lot more than YBJ cameras, also U turns, illegal right turns, using restricted lanes. God knows what else and where it will end.
Link to an article in today's Thunderer.
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-951546,00.html
while we are about it this article by Minette Marrin is a cracker too!
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-950736,00.html
Methinks more and more will be disappearing down the unregistered black hole
Link to an article in today's Thunderer.
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-951546,00.html
while we are about it this article by Minette Marrin is a cracker too!
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-950736,00.html
Methinks more and more will be disappearing down the unregistered black hole
While I do think that some enforcement of these infingements is needed, my fear it that this will be the thin end of the wedge.
Trafic wardens (well some anyway) are notorious for being over zealous in certain situations - Ticketing delivery trucks, emergency vehicles and hearses. And now we are to be happy that they can ticket for minor infringements of the rules.
I see that it is only a matter of time before the government give traffic wardens full responsibility for all traffic matters.
Trafic wardens (well some anyway) are notorious for being over zealous in certain situations - Ticketing delivery trucks, emergency vehicles and hearses. And now we are to be happy that they can ticket for minor infringements of the rules.
I see that it is only a matter of time before the government give traffic wardens full responsibility for all traffic matters.
There are countless problems with Traffic Wardens handing out tickets for bad driving.
Two off the top of my head are:
1) There's no evidence to show in court of the said offence, just the traffic warden's 'honest' word.
2) (Sorry to sound racist and over generalising - I'm not) Most traffic wardens that I have the misfortune to meet are first generation immigrants. Can these people drive? Will they be required to hold a UK driving license before they start complaining about peoples driving? Will they be required go to IAM and ROSPA or pass some sort of advanced driving test before they pass judgement?
Two off the top of my head are:
1) There's no evidence to show in court of the said offence, just the traffic warden's 'honest' word.
2) (Sorry to sound racist and over generalising - I'm not) Most traffic wardens that I have the misfortune to meet are first generation immigrants. Can these people drive? Will they be required to hold a UK driving license before they start complaining about peoples driving? Will they be required go to IAM and ROSPA or pass some sort of advanced driving test before they pass judgement?
forever_driving said:
There are countless problems with Traffic Wardens handing out tickets for bad driving. ...
But at least they'll have to wear their hats
- Streaky I make no apology for seeming to treat this matter with distain, not to say hilarity. I have completely given up on the bunch of shysters masquerading as a government. I believe that history will show them to be the biggest bunch of hapless, pig-headed, conniving, lying, traitors who ever got elected - S
>> Edited by streaky on Monday 5th January 10:28
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